What's Holding Back America's Move to Electric Cars? (theverge.com) 428
"Let's get one thing out of the way," writes the Verge's transportation editor. Contrary to what you may have heard about U.S. sales of electric vehicles — sales are up.
[Consumer insights company] JD Power is projecting that 1.2 million EVs will be sold in the US by the end of 2024, an increase over 1 million sold last year. That's 9 percent of total vehicles sold, which has been revised down from a previous prediction of 12 percent... Overall, an additional 35,000 battery-electric vehicles were sold in the first seven months of 2024 as compared to last year, JD Power says.
That includes hybrids and PHEVs, which I think gets at the root of the problem. Those who were expecting an even swap — battery-electric for internal combustion — didn't anticipate the popularity of hybrids in the market. If anything, hybrids are cannibalizing EV sales, giving the pure-battery electric vehicles more competition than anticipated. But in retrospect, it makes sense. What better response to "range anxiety" than a vehicle that, in a sense, operates as an electric vehicle until the battery runs out, and then switches over to gas...?
EVs are still too expensive, giving potential buyers sticker shock. According to data from Kelley Blue Book, the average transaction price for an electric car in July 2024 was $56,520. Meanwhile, the average gas-powered vehicle is selling at $48,401. There's also a depreciation problem. New research out of George Washington University finds that older EVs depreciate in value faster than conventional gas cars. Some even lost 50 percent of their resale value in a single year. The upside is that newer models with longer driving ranges are holding their value better and approaching the retention rates of many gas cars.
The charging experience is still wildly out-of-sync for most people. Either it's the single most satisfying thing about owning an EV or it's the worst. And the distinction is usually between people who live in houses and can install a home charger in their garage and those who live in an apartment building or multi-unit housing and have to rely on unreliable public chargers... But JD Power is optimistic about where that's heading, especially as public satisfaction is growing in both Level 2 and DC fast charging over two consecutive quarters. The Biden administration also continues to make massive investments in public charging, which should slowly ease the experience of public charging from "soul-sucking" to "honestly whatever."
The article concludes that the EV industry needs patience and flexibility. But more than that, it "needs to slow it down with the six-figure, luxury pickups and SUVs and start offering more low-cost compact cars and sedans."
That includes hybrids and PHEVs, which I think gets at the root of the problem. Those who were expecting an even swap — battery-electric for internal combustion — didn't anticipate the popularity of hybrids in the market. If anything, hybrids are cannibalizing EV sales, giving the pure-battery electric vehicles more competition than anticipated. But in retrospect, it makes sense. What better response to "range anxiety" than a vehicle that, in a sense, operates as an electric vehicle until the battery runs out, and then switches over to gas...?
EVs are still too expensive, giving potential buyers sticker shock. According to data from Kelley Blue Book, the average transaction price for an electric car in July 2024 was $56,520. Meanwhile, the average gas-powered vehicle is selling at $48,401. There's also a depreciation problem. New research out of George Washington University finds that older EVs depreciate in value faster than conventional gas cars. Some even lost 50 percent of their resale value in a single year. The upside is that newer models with longer driving ranges are holding their value better and approaching the retention rates of many gas cars.
The charging experience is still wildly out-of-sync for most people. Either it's the single most satisfying thing about owning an EV or it's the worst. And the distinction is usually between people who live in houses and can install a home charger in their garage and those who live in an apartment building or multi-unit housing and have to rely on unreliable public chargers... But JD Power is optimistic about where that's heading, especially as public satisfaction is growing in both Level 2 and DC fast charging over two consecutive quarters. The Biden administration also continues to make massive investments in public charging, which should slowly ease the experience of public charging from "soul-sucking" to "honestly whatever."
The article concludes that the EV industry needs patience and flexibility. But more than that, it "needs to slow it down with the six-figure, luxury pickups and SUVs and start offering more low-cost compact cars and sedans."
Nothing (Score:5, Insightful)
I see electric cars from pretty much every automotive manufacturer on the road in my area. I thought the BMW and Acura models were both sharp.
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In the UK if your car is zero emission you get a green stripe on your numberplate. That way everyone can see how many EVs are actually on the road. No idea if it has encouraged uptake.
I too am seeing more on the road (Score:5, Funny)
Here is the Fox Valley industrial district in Wisconsin where much of your toilet paper comes from, an electric car had been a rare sight. These days I am seeing more of them.
Why, a week ago, I saw a Tesla Model 3 along I-41 near Appleton, Wisconsin. On the side of the road being winched up on a flatbed truck!
Re:I too am seeing more on the road (Score:4, Interesting)
Why, a week ago, I saw a Tesla Model 3 along I-41 near Appleton, Wisconsin. On the side of the road being winched up on a flatbed truck!
If you see a tow truck called for an gas car, it's so commonplace that nobody would bother to mention it. Yes, IC cars break down sometimes; nobody thinks twice. The fact that it's worthy of mention when an electric car gets tow (with an exclamation point, even!) is itself noteworthy.
Nothing. Slowdown normal tech adoption life cycle. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing. I see plenty on the road these days, enough with the daily reminder that the sales trend has slowed.
Yes, nothing is holding back electric vehicles. They are following the normal technology adoption life cycle. However advocates and politicians ignore the normal tech adoption lifecycle and offer wildly unrealistic predictions. As if everyone in the US has the financial means and EV accommodating lifestyle of the early adopters. They do not. And moving from the early adopters market to main market is a notoriously difficult thing for a tech product to do. It's considered a "marketing chasm". We see a slowdown because we are now attempting to cross this chasm, to move beyond the early adopter segment. And then once the chasm is crossed it still takes time to get the people with different risk tolerances to get onboard.
The short version: There is not one market. There are five markets, each market with differing financial means, differing risk tolerances, and differing needs/wants. Essentially a company needs five different product/market fits to sell to all five groups, the entire market.
The long versions:
"The technology adoption lifecycle is a sociological model that describes the adoption or acceptance of a new product or innovation, according to the demographic and psychological characteristics of defined adopter groups. The process of adoption over time is typically illustrated as a classical normal distribution or "bell curve". The model calls the first group of people to use a new product "innovators", followed by "early adopters". Next come the "early majority" and "late majority", and the last group to eventually adopt a product are called "laggards" or "phobics"."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
"This gap between niche appeal and mass (self-sustained) adoption was originally labeled "the marketing chasm""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
"The author argues there is a chasm between the early adopters of the product (the technology enthusiasts and visionaries) and the early majority (the pragmatists). Moore believes visionaries and pragmatists have very different expectations, and he attempts to explore those differences and suggest techniques to successfully cross the "chasm""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
No, people hate smarphones everywhere (Score:5, Insightful)
There are enough people who don't want car as a smartphone + subscription nonsense for features you do not use + tracking consumers as the product
It's a car first, drive from point A to B with relative safety and comfort. It's not an entertainment system.
https://www.carscoops.com/2024... [carscoops.com]
Memo To Automakers: Study Shows Consumer Interest In Car Tech Isn’t All That Strong
It turns out that not that many desire features like a passenger-side screen, or the ability to pay for stuff from their car
---------------------
Just for grins and applies to car tech features too:
https://www.computerweekly.com... [computerweekly.com]
Millions wasted as staff only use 40% of new software features
The majority of CIOs face an uphill struggle getting employees in their organisations to use applications to their full potential
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Okay but, none of that is exclusive to electric cars. Virtually all vehicles are headed in that direction and have been for decades. Software features are relatively cheap to add, cost almost nothing additional per vehicle, and fills out the feature list to make it seem like you're getting more for the money.
=Smidge=
Different strategies (Score:5, Insightful)
Walkable Neighborhoods. (Score:5, Informative)
>> North America desperately needs better public transport infrastructure.
Start with building walkable neighborhoods.
Re:Walkable Neighborhoods. (Score:5, Interesting)
Start with building walkable neighborhoods.
Walkable neighborhoods are hipster bullshit. At least in the form that phrase is usually used.
You simply can't cram everything we use into a walkable radius around everyone. Our friends aren't from across the street and around the corner anymore. Our jobs almost always aren't. The way retail business has evolved is the opposite of what walkable neighborhoods would require. Entertainment, relaxation, parks, etc. - no way you can fit all that into a walkable area at a cost that allows them to be non-luxury areas.
We can (and should) make sure basic everyday needs are walkable. Schools, supermarkets, etc.
Anything beyond that would profit from good public transport much more than from walkability concepts.
I used to live in a super walkable neighborhood. The best part? Two subway stations for different lines within walkable distance, because work, hobbies, friends, family and a dozen other things were not "walkable" and never will be. Simply because there are too many people with too many different jobs, hobbies, friends, families, etc.
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Start with building walkable neighborhoods.
Walkable neighborhoods are hipster bullshit.
Not true. I've lived in walkable neighborhoods; I liked it. I live in a suburb now, but it was nice to be able to walk to work, walk to stores, walk to restaurants, whatever. If I wanted to go somewhere farther than that, subway or zip car. I'd move back, but job is well outside the city.
But to make a walkable neighborhood with everything you want nearby, you need a pretty high density of people. You're going to be living an apartment. If you want a big house and a yard and a two-car garage, you're going
Re:Walkable Neighborhoods. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a crock. I've lived in both walkable and non-walkable neighborhoods, and frankly the latter don't even qualify as neighborhoods at all. Things aren't just far away, they're built deliberately hostile to personal engagement. They're designed on a scale and with features to make pedestrians feel dwarfed, isolated, and anxious, for no actual reason but to preserve a sterile aesthetic for the sake of property sales. And not just pedestrians: The worst offenders are hostile even to bicycles.
A walkable neighborhood doesn't claim to be an arcology, and doesn't have to provide all possible things in a small area. All it needs is basics like food, some green space, a pharmacy, a few services and social opportunities here and there, and safe access to some personal mobility or public transit options for medium distances.
That doesn't cost anything special. It's just greedy property developers would rather build a dystopian toilet suburb and make a dollar and a cent than build a real community and make just a dollar.
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We can (and should) make sure basic everyday needs are walkable. Schools, supermarkets, etc.
Anything beyond that would profit from good public transport much more than from walkability concepts.
You're so angry at the word "walkable" and keen to propose alternatives that you inadvertently proposed ... wait for it ... precisely what it is to have a walkable city. A walkable city is about walking to the necessities and having good public transport infrastructure for everything else.
Congrats, glad you're on board. Less frothing angrily and needlessly at the mouth next time.
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I would settle for some sidewalks in my neighborhood. However, the neighbors don't want the government to "take their land."
Sidewalks are an added cost to the homeowner, they are responsible for the maintenance, as well as a liability. If you live in a place with snow and ice, and someone slips on your part of the sidewalk, they can come after you for not properly cleaning it.
A recent event not far from me shows the huge downside of sidewalks. The township is repaving a road in a development. People started getting bills for thousands of dollars and found out the sidewalks needed to be torn out and redone as part of the pavin
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>> North America desperately needs better public transport infrastructure.
Start with building walkable neighborhoods.
Neighborhoods in the vast majority of places are already walkable. You go outside and start walking.
But looking for houses which don't have sidewalks can be tricky depending on where you live. It's an added cost and a liability, so people don't want the hassle.
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>"Well, 'Murica isn't uniform & there are still lots of areas where providing public transport would be relatively easy & conveniently, at least technically. "
That doesn't mean people will want to use it. I certainly wouldn't. My time is valuable to me, and I don't want to wait on something that will then plop me far from my ultimate destination, in the weather, surrounded by annoying people the whole time. I think public transport is a needed option, but anyone who thinks that is going to sol
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>"Well, 'Murica isn't uniform & there are still lots of areas where providing public transport would be relatively easy & conveniently, at least technically. "
That doesn't mean people will want to use it. I certainly wouldn't. My time is valuable to me, and I don't want to wait on something that will then plop me far from my ultimate destination, in the weather, surrounded by annoying people the whole time.
Funny you should mention that. some years back, when I lived 2 miles from work, I thought I'd try taking the bus home to check out this public transport utopia lifestyle.
So it turned out that the bus to my neighborhood stopped near my workplace at 4:30, or 5:30. If not working late, I get off at 5. So I wait a half hour. Get on the bus, then it drives around Campus, then a short bit down town. Then it goes to the far north of the city to 2 shopping centers. Then a circuitous route around my village.
I f
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In my case, I moved to be 1/5 mile from work decades ago. I absolutely love being able to bike or walk to work. I save a ton of time and frustration. My car lasts forever and is in near-mint condition because it stays in a garage unless weather is horrible.
Of course, I still drive the cart to shop, visit friends, etc. But I rarely leave work at the same time. I have to fill the tank maybe once every 6 weeks or so.
But I also know I am lucky that things worked out like that for me. Eventually, I would l
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In my case, I moved to be 1/5 mile from work decades ago. I absolutely love being able to bike or walk to work. I save a ton of time and frustration. My car lasts forever and is in near-mint condition because it stays in a garage unless weather is horrible.
Of course, I still drive the cart to shop, visit friends, etc. But I rarely leave work at the same time. I have to fill the tank maybe once every 6 weeks or so.
But I also know I am lucky that things worked out like that for me. Eventually, I would like to live further away, where it is quieter and nicer. But the major factor that has kept me where I am is that I simply do not want to fight traffic twice a day. I HATE that.
I'm very lucky to live in a wooded neighborhood that is close to work (I live about 2.5 miles from work now) I'm not a big fan of the cramming people together lifestyle the walkable city people demand. Their concept requires everyone living in very tall apartments, surrounded by a lot of repeats of all the businesses they need for living.
They might claim that is a utopian lifestyle. To me that's the 7th level of hell.
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>"They might claim that is a utopian lifestyle. To me that's the 7th level of hell."
Agreed. I acknowledge that some people might be happy that way, but not all of us.
WEF: "You will own nothing and be happy".... No thanks, and no I wouldn't be.
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If you live 2 miles from work, the optimal transport is a bike.
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>"If you live 2 miles from work, the optimal transport is a bike."
That entirely depends on many different factors, these being the biggest:
1) Types of roads.
2) Weather
3) Your physical condition
4) What you need to transport
You can't bike well in the rain, or at all safely in ice or snow. Roads around here are very dangerous. *I* can bike to work, but only because there is a safe route. Many have no such luxury. Some people don't have the stamina to bike or have other physical limitations. And you are
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If you live 2 miles from work, the optimal transport is a bike.
During nice mornings and evenings, it isn't too bad. But we get a lot of rain in my neck of the woods, and a bike on snow or ice is a real hazard.
As well, I don't want to arrive at work all sweaty. My own preferences in order would be personal transportation, walking, biking, and the bus.
Wait, what? (Score:2)
So it turned out that the bus to my neighborhood stopped near my workplace at 4:30, or 5:30. If not working late, I get off at 5. So I wait a half hour. Get on the bus, then it drives around Campus, then a short bit down town. Then it goes to the far north of the city to 2 shopping centers. Then a circuitous route around my village.
I finally got desperate and got off, then walked a final mile to my place. Almost 2 fscking hours to go what is 2 miles away.
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong here. So you got on a bus without knowing where it would take you and got upset that it didn't take you to where you wanted to go?
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Why don't you walk in first place, if it is only 30 minutes?
Because I often went to different places during my workday. Often having to take my own vehicle (don't worry folks - I was paid for it)
There were times, like a beautiful spring or fall days that I would walk to work. But in hot, rainy or icy weather, it wasn't much fun. Arrive sweaty, damp or risk injury.
Most of the time, driving was a safer and much more convenient option.
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Mass transit is very hit and miss in the USA. It’s only working in very large populated areas. Like chicago, NYC large. Lots of smaller cities tried the “if you build it, they will come” approach have come under fire for more than a decade of such underutilization that often only 1-2 passengers are ever seen on a bus designed to hold 80. Just because your city may only have a few hundred thousand residents does not mean they all live in houses. There are a fuck ton of high density apartmen
Charging, Obviously (Score:4, Insightful)
The EV sales rate slowdown shows us that we are reaching the point of easy saturation, where the people for whom buying an EV is a no-brainer have already been served. In order to move that point forwards again we must make charging an EV as easy as charging a car. The charge times could improve a bit, but that is not as important as just being able to find a charger without waiting. There also need to be pull-through chargers that you can pull a trailer through, since that's what's holding up adoption for an entire very popular class of vehicles here in the USA.
Most vehicles are financed, you should be able to finance a more expensive EV since you won't have to budget for fuel. EVs work in some of the coldest countries around, where there are enough chargers. EVs require much less maintenance. There are tons of good reasons to buy them, and only one great reason not to which applies to many people, and that is charging difficulty.
There is another reason, though, and it's the economy. The DOW might be kicking ass but since trickle down doesn't work, that's not relevant here. I don't expect to be able to afford a new vehicle any time in the next five years given housing costs, no matter what it runs on. I drive a used econobox, which thankfully I like a lot more than I thought I would. The EV market is just going to have to wait for me, I guess.
Re: Charging, Obviously (Score:5, Insightful)
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Most vehicles are financed, you should be able to finance a more expensive EV since you won't have to budget for fuel.
It's hit the point of easy saturation among people who can afford such expensive cars.
^^
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Public charging seems to be the biggest issue in the US. The market has failed to deliver.
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It certainly has. I do not understand why these other automakers didn't learn from Tesla, and put in a bunch of good chargers themselves. They have all the data. They have the ability to get government money, even, they could have just lobbied for it and said "jobs jobs jobs". There's a lot wrong with Tesla vehicles but it's hard to hate on their chargers, which seem to have some of the best uptime.
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The funny thing is they have installed chargers in Europe. Nissan and Renault partnered to build the first one in the UK, and now there are a few big coalition groups that have been installing chargers like crazy.
A guy on YouTube recently took his 2019 Kia Niro from the UK to Italy. In fact I think he is over there with his family now. Didn't plan anything, just got on the Eurotunnel and started driving south. No issues really, a couple of broken chargers but there were multiple unoccupied working ones at t
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Right, but they can get high margins selling incredibly stupid electric trucks, too. They can buy electric trucks and SUVs instead of something sensible and pay too much for them instead. But as long as they can't tow the boat to the lake twice a year they don't want 'em.
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Right, but they can get high margins selling incredibly stupid electric trucks, too.
I'd argue not to the same extent. Basically they've pushed out trucks to be juuuust on the limit of what people can afford with finance. You can still make ICE vehicles cheaper (more to come), so you'll get less truck for what people can juuuuust afford (with finance). And they margins are higher.
Speaking of cheaper, trucks need big batteries, and extra big ones because they are build to look aggressive and that they dominat
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I'd argue not to the same extent. Basically they've pushed out trucks to be juuuust on the limit of what people can afford with finance.
Yes, but the way they have done that is by overcharging for upgrades. It's not like the trucks are expensive to make. In fact they're faster and easier to assemble than cars, because the cabs and frames can be assembled separately and then combined.
Re:Charging, Obviously (Score:5, Interesting)
The EV sales rate slowdown shows us that we are reaching the point of easy saturation, where the people for whom buying an EV is a no-brainer have already been served. In order to move that point forwards again we must make charging an EV as easy as charging a car. The charge times could improve a bit, but that is not as important as just being able to find a charger without waiting. There also need to be pull-through chargers that you can pull a trailer through, since that's what's holding up adoption for an entire very popular class of vehicles here in the USA.
Most vehicles are financed, you should be able to finance a more expensive EV since you won't have to budget for fuel. EVs work in some of the coldest countries around, where there are enough chargers. EVs require much less maintenance. There are tons of good reasons to buy them, and only one great reason not to which applies to many people, and that is charging difficulty.
There is another reason, though, and it's the economy. The DOW might be kicking ass but since trickle down doesn't work, that's not relevant here. I don't expect to be able to afford a new vehicle any time in the next five years given housing costs, no matter what it runs on. I drive a used econobox, which thankfully I like a lot more than I thought I would. The EV market is just going to have to wait for me, I guess.
The issue here is that cheap finance is built on the resale value of the vehicle, so the lessee is only paying for the depreciation, interest and a small slice for the finance provider. EVs are too volatile to have a guaranteed resale value, so finance companies are being risk averse.
Most folk don't have £40,000 to whack down on a car, let alone an average car selling at high end prices. The low end of EVs hasn't eventuated, a Citroen C3 which is a small SUV sells for around £14,500 but the electric version the Citroen e C3 is almost £8000 more expensive for not much more car and that's the 2nd cheapest on the market, even the cheapo Chinese MGs BYDs are pushing north of £26,000 and these will be the most basic cars you can get.
Once the government subsidies get axed (likely soon in the UK as adults are now in charge again) they'll get even more expensive.
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Some of the Chinese brands have reached price parity between fossil and EV versions. Even the European manufacturers often heavily discount their EVs down to fossil prices or even below too.
It's annoying because you can't just point to a list price, but you can actually get a very affordable EV now. If you are willing to get one a few years old, or even pre-reg, it's even better.
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Most vehicles are financed, you should be able to finance a more expensive EV since you won't have to budget for fuel.
Many people looked at the numbers and EVs don't deliver sufficient fuel savings to offset much higher price (and interest paid for financing that premium). Especially in an ideal EV use case - short urban daily commute to work - you just don't use that much fuel.
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Charging is part of it, but winter matters too. 40% of your range gone due to weather? Can't charge at all unless you are in a heated garage? The car burns through the battery while parked just keeping the battery warm?
Not everywhere is California.
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1) affordability where fuel cost is considered doesn't exist. People buy Cadillac Escalades. Which is WOW, just wow in terms of gas. The only thing at really factors into their budget is whether financing will approve it, even when they seriously should not be over extending themselves.
2) some of the repair issues are coming to the surface which is detracting from the savings. Apparently these things weigh a lot more and are consuming tires at a faster pace. The other shoe we all know is going to drop is a
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And you failed. As soon as anyone picks any one thing you know it's not the full story.
Charging is an issue. As is price. As is perception. As is range anxiety. As is (this one surprised me) the idea that all EVs are cars that are mobile phones and ICE cars are not. As is depreciation of value. As is fear the battery will fail. As is the incorrect perception that they will burst into flames.
Seriously go out and talk to people. You'll find all sorts of reasons why they won't consider an EV, even if you build
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The EV sales rate slowdown
Apparently, you didn't even read the summary fully:
"[Consumer insights company] JD Power is projecting that 1.2 million EVs will be sold in the US by the end of 2024, an increase over 1 million sold last year. "
The rate of increase in sales of EVs isn't as large as it has been, but the rate of sales of EVs is still increasing.
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When I think of "nice" gas stations: You gas up under cover. You can drive through - no backing up - which makes queuing possible. You can shop, or drink a coffee.
When I think of the chargers I see: they are isolated, not covered, and you cannot drive through. There's not a shop, not even a coffee machine, nothing but the chargers on the edge of a parking lot. On top of that, the usual charge is four times the retail price of electricity. That's just rapacious, especially for such poor infrastructure.
Some
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There's no long-term slowdown in auto sales:
1970-2022:
https://www.energy.gov/eere/ve... [energy.gov]
2023
https://wardsintelligence.info... [informa.com]
Used market and batteries (Score:4, Informative)
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Choice (Score:4, Insightful)
>"The article concludes that the EV industry needs patience and flexibility. But more than that, it "needs to slow it down with the six-figure, luxury pickups and SUVs and start offering more low-cost compact cars and sedans."
I have been saying that for years. All they want to make are trucks and SUVs, and many of us have no interest in a huge boxes. Almost none ever leave the road, rarely carry more than a few people, and aren't hauling stuff. It is a ton of extra weight and height to further reduce range, performance (both acceleration and stopping), and stability, while also increasing cost and air drag.
We need CHOICES in models. That includes large, medium, and small cars. And also choices in range. I am waiting for a luxury sports sedan with great performance, short range (which also means smaller price and less weight) but also that doesn't look like some alien space ship, and one with a real dashboard and with real controls. Several people I know want the same, and most of us don't care about "self driving" or overly intrusive "assistance". And we don't want the cost and complexity of a "PHEV"- some might see them as the "best of both worlds", but many others see them as the WORST of both worlds.
one scenario (Score:2)
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a more interesting comparison is the time it takes to drive to work and back, and to make the comparison a little harder for ICE, do it on an empty tank. This is something the majority of drivers do every day, who drives from Ironwood to Detroit every day?
Evolution = Depreciation (Score:3)
Best to wait for the Ordovician era.
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Zero Interest, Personally (Score:2)
They don't interest me.
If anything at all, I want a 100% electronics free vehicle. We should be using our advanced manufacturing techniques to produce vehicles with the improved tolerances and performance, without compromising the vehicle solution with unnecessary technology.
Sure you CAN make a car which literally runs on potatoes, but why the heck would you want to? EVs are the same - nice hobby, bro. Enjoy whatever ethical signaling you think you're giving off.
Let's also be clear, climate change is a real
Re:Zero Interest, Personally (Score:5, Insightful)
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"Let's also be clear, climate change is a real thing, which will happen with or without human intervention, and is neither good nor bad beyond your opinion. "
This is a lie, and that is not an opinion. Climate change is caused by man, it is an extremely bad thing.
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"Enjoy whatever ethical signaling you think you're giving off."
Said without the slightest appreciation of the irony. Thinking that EVs are a "nice hobby" just shows how little objectivity means to you.
"I want a 100% electronics free vehicle."
So you are technically illiterate.
Weird logic and inaccuracy there. (Score:2)
The article also gives a figure for sales of "battery-electric vehicles" (BEVs), but then says that figure includes hybrids and PHEVs - categories that are, in fac
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On the other hand, the funny thing about PHEV's is it's impossible to know what fuel mix they'll actually end up using over their next 12 or 15 years on the road. I'd guess currently they are largely fueled by gas. But in a decade, there will be a lot more chargers than there are now. At my work there are a limited number of charging stations, they're solar powered and also shade the car. Who wouldn't want that?
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"I'd guess currently they are largely fueled by gas."
Why would you guess that? The entire point in the "plug-in" part is for that to NOT be the case.
"But in a decade, there will be a lot more chargers than there are now."
That won't affect the "fuel mix" of PHEV, though. PHEV is for charging at home, not charging on the road.
The Stonecutters, obviously (Score:3)
EV designers trying to be web devs (Score:5, Insightful)
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What's next for me, one of these?
https://www.amazon.com/artfone... [amazon.com]
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Same here, worked in tech my entire life. I don't want that shit in my car either. I know how the tech works and know most of it is unnecessary, provides little to the actual function of a "car", and is too easily abused by the companies that install it (which is the main reason it's there in the first place). Give people an electric version of a 2007 Pontiac Vibe (actually a Toyota in disguise) or a similar styled vehicle and you'll have them lining up to purchase. These spyware cell phones on wheels offer
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Yes, Tesla has been a shit stain on the automotive industry. And the recent terrible UX in cars is not limited to EVs, but there are EVs that avoid it to varying extents as well. Silicon Valley is wealthy, that makes them think they are smart. They are not.
iPads strapped to dashes will go away in time, hopefully accelerated by the demise of Elon Musk. We can only hope.
The answer is: FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a half of those in power in the US who have decided to make this a political issue and are not only obstructing adoption via policy, but - more importantly - by originating and spreading anti-EV rhetoric. That's the real obstacle.
Range anxiety - This one is the most comedic. The vast, vast majority of drivers travel about 30 miles a day. That means most people need to charge an EV roughly once every 10 days. Or do one of those fast-charge top-ups to restore almost a week in about 20 minutes of charging.
Cost - An average driver would be spending around $1,500 to $2,000 less per year on fuel by shifting to an EV. Keep that car for a decade and you've covered a $15,000 to $20,000 price increase. Yes, financing and compound interest are a thing. But these cars also have lower maintenance costs.
Weather - Different reports and different cars lose different amounts of range due to temperature. The impact of this is overstated though. Sure, you might have to charge a day or two early, but that's the biggest impact. Also, much of the US is unaffected or barely affected by this most or all of the time.
Apartments - It's more complicated for people who don't have a standalone house to charge at home. That's true, but it's still not the deal-breaker many claim. Lots of chargers are present at shopping centers, and if you can time your travels so you're stocking up on stuff while you car charges, this is a non-problem. That may not work for a lot of people, but it's still a decent option - and improving all the time - for many.
Charger availability - This is a situation that is improving literally every day (that Musk doesn't decide to fire his charging expansion team). Sure, if you're in a tiny town you may not have a charger anywhere near you. Strangely, those little places are best-suited for home charging. If you're on a farm, 50 miles from the nearest place you can buy a can of Coke, you're one phone call away from getting your own charger, because you don't have the "but, apartments" excuse.
Charger reliability - Sure, these things can be broken, but certain voices are making it out to be fatal. Some studies are showing up to 20% of chargers are broken at any given time. That's a lot. But it doesn't mean you won't get your car charged. And this is a thing that is improving with time. This is new technology that is constantly improving in many metrics, and this is the floor of where this issue will be.
Greenwashing - Sure, not all electricity is cleanly produced, so fossil fuels may be being burned to fuel your EV. But even ethanol isn't without its environmental down-sides, such as... that land could have been used to produce food. This is still a strange argument because even if EVs aren't as clean as their proponents imply, ICE is still worse. Some will bring up the chemicals and elements and mining practices involved in making batteries, and there's some truth in that not being terribly clean, but the vast majority of an EV battery is viable for recycling. Real recycling, not fake plastic recycling.
Resale value - It's true that EVs depreciate faster than ICE does, but that's got two interesting implications. One: it argues against the "cost" excuse. Go get one of those heavily depreciated used EVs. Two: it's circular logic. EVs depreciate faster at least partially because of the very FUD I'm talking about. It turns out that after a decade, typical EV range loss is about 10%. That's in the general ballpark of when most people are looking to replace their car regardless, and it's still... only 10%. The worry about "what do I do when the battery pack goes?" is valid, but on par with "when the engine grenades" or "when the transmission detonates", or any of the other major-ticket repairs an ICE car risks.
Cross-country trips - Some people make it sound like the ave
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> Range anxiety - This one is the most comedic.
Really? I want an EV very badly, but I recognize that when I get one it will be far more limited in utility than my ICE cars. I own a home and can install my own charger, which is great, but it's not like public chargers are everywhere... while there isn't a small town I've ever driven through that doesn't have a gas station. And unless I buy top end (which isn't going to happen), I have family I can't visit in that vehicle because the range limits would
Batteries aren't there yet (Score:2)
Battery technology just isn't there yet. Too expensive, too large, too heavy, too short of lifetime, too long to charge. We just aren't ready yet.
I compare this to AI. Current AI is just a mirage of what a *real* AI will be. Yeah, it gives us a little taste of what is to come, but it's not the solution everyone thinks it is...yet.
Holy sh*t what a naïve question (Score:2)
time is the biggest factor (Score:2)
It takes time to replace cars. People keep their cars on average for 12 years. And there will be some cars that are much older. Even if half the cars sold next year will be BEVs, it would take decades for half of the cars on the road to be BEVs. Expect a transition of nearly all of the cars to electric to take about a century.
Increasing gas tax and using it to subsidize EV purchases would accelerate it a bit, but mostly it would annoy some people and make other people happy.
Car industry in general (Score:2)
This. It's becoming almost impossible to buy a small car nowadays. My current car is a tiny little Honda Fit, and I love it. But it's a 2015 model, so it has only a few more years left in it. I paid $13K CAD for it (which is about $10K USD) when it was 5 years old. I certainly have no intention of paying $50-$60K for a car in today's dollars, ever.
Car manufacturers make wa
OK let's review this objectively. (Score:2)
"U.S. sales of electric vehicles â" sales are up" - yes, they have increased. Let's remember the magic of percentages, that you get nice big percentages when the actual numbers are small.
"9 percent of total vehicles sold, which has been revised down from a previous prediction of 12 percent" Nope. Annually about FIFTY million vehicles are sold in the US each year, of which 4/5 are used. The 9/12% numbers here are of new car sales only. I can't quickly find ANY data on Used EVs sold each year; I expe
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EV's need much more and different materials than ICE cars, many of which like cobalt, lithium, etc have a very dirty and energy intensive refining process.
Lithium is not particularly dirty to refine; it can be extracted through brining and that can be done responsibly, though it usually isn't. But the same is true for all of the stuff cars are made of, including steel. Most mining is strip mining, because it's cheap. ICEVs use cobalt, including in the steel. EV batteries do not have to use cobalt; At least half of EVs now use Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries which do not use cobalt.
Then after the car is built the energy still has to come from somewhere, like the local power plant. Coal is dirty, gasoline is less dirty, natural gas even less dirty.
This is stupid and wrong because the coal and natural gas are burned in pow
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Re:They're not actually better for the environment (Score:4, Insightful)
You've managed to condense all the anti-EV bullsh^t into one concise post. Well done! However, you are a liar.
For starters:
"According to Transport & Environment - a European NGO promoting sustainable transport - most EVs will reach emission parity in one or two years and will "quickly repay their carbon debt'. Even for the worst-case scenarios, where an EV has a battery produced in China and is driven in Poland - the most GHG emission intensive country in Europe the EV will still emit 37% less CO2 than a conventional petrol car. This advantage will only be amplified as the European electricity grid becomes greener with the 2030 renewable energy source target currently set at 42.5% for the EU electricity supply and as the end-of-life management of EV batteries develop. In 2023 Swedish researchers were able to recover 100% of the aluminium and 98% of the lithium in an EV battery:
. https://www.zaptec.com/info-hub/industry-news/the-tale-of-ev-vs-ice-lifecycle-emissions [zaptec.com]
And there's this:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths [epa.gov]
And for a really comprehensive, more US-oriented analysis, there's this:
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/just-how-dirty-is-your-ev [recurrentauto.com]
Sorry to pee in your orange juice. There's lots and lots more,for anyone interested in facts rather than another boring attempt to sow FUD.
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Note to readers: My comment above, like several around it, is a reply to a troll that was modded down into oblivion. It may now appear that I'm slagging the summary, or whatever comment is currently sitting on top of mine. This was not my intention.
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Re:They're not actually better for the environment (Score:4, Insightful)
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An EV charged by a dirty power plant is vastly cleaner than an ICE car
Is it? Maybe cleaner for you. A study found mercury from power plants is proportional to the distance from the plant up to about 30 miles, mostly in the downwind direction from the prominent winds.
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And this is a problem for EVs? So now we need to consider pollution at specific points on the globe? How about how an ICE vehicle is bad for the environment at the point where its exhaust exits the vehicle? Or the pollution caused at the storage tanks at gas stations? At the refineries?
Where dirty power plants are used, EV usage only increases load on the power plants modestly. You are intentionally assigning blame where it doesn't exist. Wonder why?
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Batteries are the absolute worst form of energy storage for transportation because they can't use atmospheric oxygen and need to carry their own. In a more rational world they'd be considered a last resort when nothing else will work.
If it wasn't for government demands to try to force everything into all-electric whether it makes sense or not then we could have some really great hybrid vehicles
Re: Charging, range, price, endurance (Score:2)
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My 2015 car reached an excellent compromise as far as gauges and controls. The display is 100% digital, but the controls that would tend to distract are located on the steering wheel. They're good, old-fashioned buttons and rocker switches. Having driven a car with a touch screen, I have to agree with you. I grew up driving stick, using analogue gauges and controls. The touch screen was a nightmare.
My use case for an EV is as part of my friend's two car family. Their EV does just about all of the city
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I don't have any charging stations either close to my most visited destinations, which would my parent's home (400 miles from my home) or the workplace of my wife (550 miles). The workplace of my wife is e
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Can you say one thing with talking about sucking cock? What does that say about you?
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That your mom was sucking on mine when I wrote that. Next time she should take her dentures out and just go gummie.
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Who, the billionaires?
Re:People can barely afford used cars (Score:4, Insightful)