Europe Automakers Launch Cheaper Electric Cars to Compete With China (cnbc.com) 41
"Several of Europe's biggest carmakers unveiled low-cost electric vehicles at the Paris Motor Show this week," reports CNBC. The automakers are "seeking to jump-start a demand slump and recapture some of the market share now held by Chinese brands."
"It feels like Europe is fighting back," Julia Poliscanova, senior director for vehicles and e-mobility supply chains at the Transport & Environment campaign group, told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show. "There are so many new models on show, and what is really great is that there are a lot of launches that are more affordable. So, Citroen, Peugeot [and] Renault, they are all showing some smaller affordable models," Poliscanova said. "This is exactly what we need for the mass market, for people to buy those vehicles more, and this is also where the competition from the Chinese is also the hardest," she added...
"The storytelling is that people have cooled off on EVs and there is no consumer demand, [but] this is really not true," Transport & Environment's Poliscanova said. "This year in Europe, we did not have affordable models, so people are not buying those overpriced premium vehicles. However, as soon as vehicles come in the right price range next year ... people will flock to buy them." Poliscanova said the launch of several low-cost EVs means electric car sales could account for up to a 24% market share next year, up from 14% this year. Chinese-made EVs typically cost less than half the prices seen in Europe and the U.S. last year, according to figures published by data firm JATO, underscoring the challenge for Western automakers to keep pace with Beijing...
Pere Brugal, president and managing director of GM Europe, said that the challenges facing Europe's auto industry should be seen as a transitional phase — and not evidence of a crisis. "The adoption of new technologies and new behaviors is never a linear growth story, but the end is full-electric [vehicles]," Brugal told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show.
Meanwhile, GM's CEO "says it will start making money on battery-powered models by the end of the year — becoming the only U.S. automaker aside from Tesla to achieve that feat," reports the New York Times (adding that sales are increasing "and the company just introduced a model that sells for less than $30,000 after a federal tax credit.")
And GM "is still committed to doing away with combustion engine cars in the United States by 2035."
"The storytelling is that people have cooled off on EVs and there is no consumer demand, [but] this is really not true," Transport & Environment's Poliscanova said. "This year in Europe, we did not have affordable models, so people are not buying those overpriced premium vehicles. However, as soon as vehicles come in the right price range next year ... people will flock to buy them." Poliscanova said the launch of several low-cost EVs means electric car sales could account for up to a 24% market share next year, up from 14% this year. Chinese-made EVs typically cost less than half the prices seen in Europe and the U.S. last year, according to figures published by data firm JATO, underscoring the challenge for Western automakers to keep pace with Beijing...
Pere Brugal, president and managing director of GM Europe, said that the challenges facing Europe's auto industry should be seen as a transitional phase — and not evidence of a crisis. "The adoption of new technologies and new behaviors is never a linear growth story, but the end is full-electric [vehicles]," Brugal told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show.
Meanwhile, GM's CEO "says it will start making money on battery-powered models by the end of the year — becoming the only U.S. automaker aside from Tesla to achieve that feat," reports the New York Times (adding that sales are increasing "and the company just introduced a model that sells for less than $30,000 after a federal tax credit.")
And GM "is still committed to doing away with combustion engine cars in the United States by 2035."
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umm why would they need to? in this area China are generally well ahead.
All the more reason to put the intelligence services to work on them and steal their tech like they do to us. Having said that, first I'd like to try just offering the PRC some of their own medicine. If you want to sell your cars in Europe then (1) you have to form a 50/50 partnership with a local car company exactly as you are required to do as a foreign investor in China, i.e. no nominal/paper partnerships, (2) all Chinese cars for the EU market get manufactured in the EU by EU workers from scratch, i.e.
Those are not compact cars. (Score:3, Interesting)
Showed are €35k cars.
They may be compact cars by US standards but in the EU that is considered mid-size.
The only true compact shown is just a concept, claimed to go on sale for less than €20k. But it is also rumored to be a Chinese platform with a Renault designed body on it.
That is not to say we really need some new sub €20k cars, right now all of them have been killed off by overregulation. Environmental and safety laws have made is close to impossible to sell a new ICE car below that amount in Europe.
Because of this (and EVC subsidies) the cheapest new car in most EU countries is currently the electric Dacia Spring. While Dacia is a Romanian subsidiary of Renault, the electric Spring is also built in China,
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That is not to say we really need some new sub €20k cars, right now all of them have been killed off by overregulation. Environmental and safety laws have made is close to impossible to sell a new ICE car below that amount in Europe.
Sorry that's a load of crap. You can look to many manufacturers to find ICE cars under 20k EUR. Just as an example:
Renault Clio - base price 18,750. It's not the smallest car they sell. For that you can look to a Twingo, which incidentally also has an EV model that is under 15000 EUR.
Volkswagen Polo - base price 19,250. It's not the smallest car they sell. For that you can look to an Up! that is under 15000 (ICE, not EV).
Citroen C3 - base price 14,990. It's not ths... okay I'm going to stop repeating this s
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"For that you can look to a Twingo, which incidentally also has an EV model that is under 15000 EUR."
In 2026. Maybe.
"Volkswagen Polo - base price 19,250."
There is no Polo EV.
Can't be bother to fact check the rest of your made up BS.
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Can't be bothered to fact check because they'd turn out to be right? Nice.
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There is no Polo EV.
The claim was that it is impossible to sell a new ICE car for under 20k€ in Europe. ICE. Not EV.
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:4, Informative)
Iceland switched to a per-kilometer fee. It's not complicated. We have annual car inspections, like some US states (and most developed countries) do, and they just record your mileage during them. There's also registration fees to cover fixed costs. While I certainly have criticisms with our system (I think it should be biased much more against heavy vehicles and those who want to use studded tyres, as they're the ones who actually damage roads), overall, the concept is the correct one.
Electric vehicles make the grid more capital efficient, as most of their charging happens at night, so power operators get extra income that normally would have gone to waste, and likewise make better use of the spare nighttime distribution capacity. Increasing the capital efficiency of grid operators - assuming your market is competitive rather than monopolistic - decreases, not increases, prices to consumers.
Electricity production is not highly subsidized. And the US spends about $20B per year on fossil fuel studies, only half that on renewables subsidies.
Ironic comment of the day.
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Iceland switched to a per-kilometer fee. It's not complicated. We have annual car inspections, like some US states (and most developed countries) do, and they just record your mileage during them. There's also registration fees to cover fixed costs. While I certainly have criticisms with our system (I think it should be biased much more against heavy vehicles and those who want to use studded tyres, as they're the ones who actually damage roads), overall, the concept is the correct one.
Electric vehicles make the grid more capital efficient, as most of their charging happens at night, so power operators get extra income that normally would have gone to waste, and likewise make better use of the spare nighttime distribution capacity. Increasing the capital efficiency of grid operators - assuming your market is competitive rather than monopolistic - decreases, not increases, prices to consumers.
Electricity production is not highly subsidized. And the US spends about $20B per year on fossil fuel studies, only half that on renewables subsidies.
Ironic comment of the day.
"record"? Good god man (or woman)! That there is exactly why it will fail in the UK. I can hear thousands of angry Brits talking about refusing to be recorded and tracked. Not wishing to livein a surveillance state (despite all the CCTV cameras).
They'd link it to not having to carry ID and be angry at Europe for infringing on their sovereignty as they post their every waking moment on Facebook, Tiktok and Instagram.
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Where I live, we currently pay a 1$ tax on a liter of gasoline. That's almost 4$ a gallon of tax! Where do you think the government is going to get that money from if the silly leftist fanboys get their way and all vehicles move to EVs in just a few years?
They'll think of something, they always do, this is not going to be the angel that saves the poor old patriotic ICE car from obsolescence at the hands of the evil communist EVs, now try again.
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What country have you been looking up the prices for?
In the Netherlands a Polo starts at €27k.
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MG is currently selling the MG5 for a little under £20k in the UK. 250 mile range, estate/station wagon shape, autopilot. The warranty is 7 years on the car and 8 years on the battery, although in some parts of the world they do a lifetime battery warranty.
It's got a 5 start safety rating from Euro NCAP too.
They can meet all the regulatory requirements, including the safety ones, and still sell that car for 20k at a profit.
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MG is currently selling the MG5 for a little under £20k in the UK. 250 mile range, estate/station wagon shape, autopilot. The warranty is 7 years on the car and 8 years on the battery, although in some parts of the world they do a lifetime battery warranty.
It's got a 5 start safety rating from Euro NCAP too.
They can meet all the regulatory requirements, including the safety ones, and still sell that car for 20k at a profit.
Err where? The MG5 I see on the MG site is £30k+ https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/... [mg.co.uk]
Do you mean the MG3 Hybrid+?
Maybe compete with Tesla too... (Score:2)
Maybe they want to compete with Tesla too. I understand China might have cheaper EVs but I read recently that Tesla wants to lauch a $25,000 EV.
Re:Maybe compete with Tesla too... (Score:4)
I've been reading that Tesla wants to launch a cheap EV since 2013. I'll believe $25000 Teslas when I see them delivered (not just put for sale along with an apology a year later that the price ended up being higher than what was listed for the pre-order). That said the $35000 Tesla Model 3 is a 40,000EUR car. European prices are higher, so if they are targeting $25000 (30000EUR) then they will already have competition from Volkswagen, Renault, Fiat, and Citroen for their EV models (some of which come in far under that price).
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I thought the same when I posted and expected this response. By the way, $25000 != 30000EUR:
Today $25000 == 23,037.39 EUR
Last time I have been to EU, it's been quite a while, $25000 was about 10000EUR. What the heck did happen to the euro and to EU?
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You must be remembering that wrong. /EUR, and then 1.1-1.2 USD/EUR range.
The weakest the USD has been to the EUR ever was a smidge under 1.6 USD to 1 EUR, making 10,000EUR just under 16,000USD.
Ever since the currencies have closed in on parity, mostly ranging in the 1.3-1.5 USD
Here's the history chart:
https://www.macrotrends.net/25... [macrotrends.net]
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And their prices have been dropping dramatically since 2013, so what exactly is your point?
Tesla has not announced a $25k car. Do you mean $35k? That was announced in 2017, and was sold for several weeks on-menu, about half a year offmenu, in 2018. Today, $35k in 2017 dollars is $45k. The cheapest Tesla in the US today is $42,5k without the credit, $35k with it.
Tesla has mulled over a $25k car. The first time i
Well, kinda sorta (Score:3)
1. Renault showed the production version of the 5, and people love the design, but after more than a decade of reasonable volume EV manufacturing with the Zoe, it’s a shame they couldn’t do improve on range or get the price down further. The group as a whole has done the Dacia Spring, and that’s properly affordable, though. And the 4 looks like it will be a hit, and is a reasonably cheap CUV, too.
2. Peugeot’s cheapest EV is the e208, which has been around for ages. The new car this time was the e408, which is bigger and pricier
3. Citroen’s cheapest EV is the eC3, which has also already been around. The new car this time was the eC4, which is again bigger and pricier. However, it did show a natty refresh of the Ami, which is a microcar EV.
What this is really about, is that the French volume car makers have historically aimed at the family value segment, rather than premium like the German OEMs. And so they’re building out their ranges of family cars that are EVs. This is definitely good news for those of us that want EVs to succeed, but there’s a way to go on affordability yet.
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I think Renault did absolutely the right thing in moving its supermini EV to a dedicated EV platform that also supports other models. I just don't understand why that didn't translate into major consumer benefits compared to the old model running on the modified Clio platform.
The last Zoe refresh was in 2020 and delivered 245 miles range for a pretty fair price at the time. Mine cost about £30k.
But we're nearly five years on, battery tech has improved markedly and got cheaper, the 5 is on a dedicated
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Just a comment, the link in TFS is a Renault Twingo, which is priced "less than €20,000" (the Renault 5 starts at 25 k€).
On the rest I agree. Nothing specifically links their offer to competition with China. They are just making the same cars they have always made, but electrify them at a refresh.
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it’s a shame they couldn’t do improve on range
People buy small cheap tiny cars as city cars. Very few people have a problem with the current range of the Zoe. In fact there are several car companies targeting this market with even less range.
Citroen’s cheapest EV is the eC3
Actually it's the Ami and is half the price of the eC3. - Again small city car with highly limited range. But that suits a lot of people.
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The 5 is small, but it's not tiny. It's just a smidge smaller than the Zoe with worse boot space. And it's really not a cheap car. It's not like it's sub-20k.
I wasn't pinning my hopes on the 5 having a better range than the Zoe, so long as other core tech improvements were there -- more power dense battery, longer range from the same battery, lower price point, or some combo at all. But it hasn't improved at all, despite 4 years of major advances in battery tech, falling prices, and a dedicated EV platform.
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The problem is that people expect "small car = cheap car", which is a pretty good assumption with an ICE, but not so much with an EV. With an ICE, you mainly pay for size and engine power (whose needs are proportional to size). With an EV, you mainly pay for battery pack size. Making a car smaller can reduce its weight, but the main factors that determine your range are aero. When people want a "small car", they generally don't mean anything that will reduce their cross section much if at all - they gene
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One of the main problems in Europe is that we don't have battery manufacturing that can compete with China. The tech isn't as advances and the volumes are smaller, so batteries cost us more. A lot of European manufacturers just buy batteries from Chinese manufacturers.
It's not something that can be fixed quickly either, it needs big investments in R&D and in manufacturing. We should probably look to partner with some Chinese companies to develop the technology, or try to hire some Chinese experts who ca
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Yes, but Renault did great in delivering better battery tech in partnership with LG for a decade and then just sort of ... stopped. That's the weird thing.
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Yeah, Renault seems to have given up trying to produce batteries. I'm surprised Nissan are still buying them from the company they spun off, although I heard that the Ariya is a really excellent car.
What, already? (Score:2)
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What took them so long?
Greed (why offer small, kinda cheap cars, if you can make much more money on expensive SUVs?) and government subsidies (You have to increase the price so the subsidies the government offer the customers go into the coffers of the car makers.)
The Chinese are not stupid either: You don't find many cheap Chinese cars that can be bought in Europe for basically the same reasons.
How do you compete against... (Score:3)
1) Massive government subsidies
2) Low, borderline slave wages in parts of the chinese industry
Answer - you can't, at least not in europe. So the EUs answer is stiff tarifs. If euro car makers can produce cheap EVs then great, but I wonder if any will be profitable or they'll simply be sold at cost price or a small loss in order to push out chinese makes.
Re:How do you compete against... (Score:4, Informative)
Neither of those things are really true though. The reason why Chinese cars are so cheap is because they have incredibly efficient supply chains and much bigger economies of scale on expensive parts like the batteries.
If you look at the batteries in particular, European ones are older technology that is less reliable, so there are higher warranty costs associated with them, and you need more cells to match Chinese capacities. The raw materials they are made from are more expensive than the optimized Chinese designs. The volumes are lower so the R&D cost is spread over fewer packs. A lot of manufacturers and dealers are still on a learning curve too, while for Chinese ones this is all old hat and well understood. There are a lot more EV qualified technicians to do warranty work in China, and parts are more easily available, where as here if an EV develops a warranty issue they will probably be lending out a replacement car for months while they wait for the one qualified guy to diagnose it and for the part to arrive.
Chinese manufacturers went all-in on EVs in order to leapfrog the rest of the world, and it paid off.
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This: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-opinion-how-us-lost-solar-power-race-to-china/
Most of the stuff about subsidies and economies of scale are similar in the PV and EV markets.
Talking about cheap (Score:1)