Europe Automakers Launch Cheaper Electric Cars to Compete With China (cnbc.com) 169
"Several of Europe's biggest carmakers unveiled low-cost electric vehicles at the Paris Motor Show this week," reports CNBC. The automakers are "seeking to jump-start a demand slump and recapture some of the market share now held by Chinese brands."
"It feels like Europe is fighting back," Julia Poliscanova, senior director for vehicles and e-mobility supply chains at the Transport & Environment campaign group, told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show. "There are so many new models on show, and what is really great is that there are a lot of launches that are more affordable. So, Citroen, Peugeot [and] Renault, they are all showing some smaller affordable models," Poliscanova said. "This is exactly what we need for the mass market, for people to buy those vehicles more, and this is also where the competition from the Chinese is also the hardest," she added...
"The storytelling is that people have cooled off on EVs and there is no consumer demand, [but] this is really not true," Transport & Environment's Poliscanova said. "This year in Europe, we did not have affordable models, so people are not buying those overpriced premium vehicles. However, as soon as vehicles come in the right price range next year ... people will flock to buy them." Poliscanova said the launch of several low-cost EVs means electric car sales could account for up to a 24% market share next year, up from 14% this year. Chinese-made EVs typically cost less than half the prices seen in Europe and the U.S. last year, according to figures published by data firm JATO, underscoring the challenge for Western automakers to keep pace with Beijing...
Pere Brugal, president and managing director of GM Europe, said that the challenges facing Europe's auto industry should be seen as a transitional phase — and not evidence of a crisis. "The adoption of new technologies and new behaviors is never a linear growth story, but the end is full-electric [vehicles]," Brugal told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show.
Meanwhile, GM's CEO "says it will start making money on battery-powered models by the end of the year — becoming the only U.S. automaker aside from Tesla to achieve that feat," reports the New York Times (adding that sales are increasing "and the company just introduced a model that sells for less than $30,000 after a federal tax credit.")
And GM "is still committed to doing away with combustion engine cars in the United States by 2035."
"The storytelling is that people have cooled off on EVs and there is no consumer demand, [but] this is really not true," Transport & Environment's Poliscanova said. "This year in Europe, we did not have affordable models, so people are not buying those overpriced premium vehicles. However, as soon as vehicles come in the right price range next year ... people will flock to buy them." Poliscanova said the launch of several low-cost EVs means electric car sales could account for up to a 24% market share next year, up from 14% this year. Chinese-made EVs typically cost less than half the prices seen in Europe and the U.S. last year, according to figures published by data firm JATO, underscoring the challenge for Western automakers to keep pace with Beijing...
Pere Brugal, president and managing director of GM Europe, said that the challenges facing Europe's auto industry should be seen as a transitional phase — and not evidence of a crisis. "The adoption of new technologies and new behaviors is never a linear growth story, but the end is full-electric [vehicles]," Brugal told CNBC at the Paris Motor Show.
Meanwhile, GM's CEO "says it will start making money on battery-powered models by the end of the year — becoming the only U.S. automaker aside from Tesla to achieve that feat," reports the New York Times (adding that sales are increasing "and the company just introduced a model that sells for less than $30,000 after a federal tax credit.")
And GM "is still committed to doing away with combustion engine cars in the United States by 2035."
Those are not compact cars. (Score:3, Interesting)
Showed are €35k cars.
They may be compact cars by US standards but in the EU that is considered mid-size.
The only true compact shown is just a concept, claimed to go on sale for less than €20k. But it is also rumored to be a Chinese platform with a Renault designed body on it.
That is not to say we really need some new sub €20k cars, right now all of them have been killed off by overregulation. Environmental and safety laws have made is close to impossible to sell a new ICE car below that amount in Europe.
Because of this (and EVC subsidies) the cheapest new car in most EU countries is currently the electric Dacia Spring. While Dacia is a Romanian subsidiary of Renault, the electric Spring is also built in China,
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:5, Informative)
That is not to say we really need some new sub €20k cars, right now all of them have been killed off by overregulation. Environmental and safety laws have made is close to impossible to sell a new ICE car below that amount in Europe.
Sorry that's a load of crap. You can look to many manufacturers to find ICE cars under 20k EUR. Just as an example:
Renault Clio - base price 18,750. It's not the smallest car they sell. For that you can look to a Twingo, which incidentally also has an EV model that is under 15000 EUR.
Volkswagen Polo - base price 19,250. It's not the smallest car they sell. For that you can look to an Up! that is under 15000 (ICE, not EV).
Citroen C3 - base price 14,990. It's not ths... okay I'm going to stop repeating this same stuff. They did stop selling the C1, but that's because they were pushing the Ami EV for 9000EUR in its place.
Fiat Panda, Fiat Tipo are other examples.
Yeah it's shocking that luxury European car brands aren't selling something cheap, but that doesn't mean you can't get an ICE car under 20k.
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What country have you been looking up the prices for?
In the Netherlands a Polo starts at €27k.
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Prices quoted at shows are generally without taxes and fees. So they're comparable to prices without taxes and fees elsewhere.
Remove taxes and fees from where ever you are, and research what is your nation's premium (mostly PPP correction and how expensive it is to move the car to your nation from where it's manufactured) in the initial pricing. That way to get the price that will be roughly comparable to prices that are "announced" by makers.
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Citroen C3 - base price 14,990. It's not ths... okay I'm going to stop repeating this same stuff. They did stop selling the C1, but that's because they were pushing the Ami EV for 9000EUR in its place.
I thought that's because Toyota stopped making the Aygo which the C1 is the exact same car made in the same Czech factory. Toyota replaced it with the Aygo X, a small SUV and Citroen already had their own models of drab, oversized, underpowerd means of sucking your will to live.
But I feel there is a point, cars have gotten more expensive in recent years, it was a scant 10 years ago when !GOOD NEWS! a new Dacia Sandero was short of £8,000, Now it's edging £14,000. Not quite EUR 20K but still a
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:5, Informative)
Iceland switched to a per-kilometer fee. It's not complicated. We have annual car inspections, like some US states (and most developed countries) do, and they just record your mileage during them. There's also registration fees to cover fixed costs. While I certainly have criticisms with our system (I think it should be biased much more against heavy vehicles and those who want to use studded tyres, as they're the ones who actually damage roads), overall, the concept is the correct one.
Electric vehicles make the grid more capital efficient, as most of their charging happens at night, so power operators get extra income that normally would have gone to waste, and likewise make better use of the spare nighttime distribution capacity. Increasing the capital efficiency of grid operators - assuming your market is competitive rather than monopolistic - decreases, not increases, prices to consumers.
Electricity production is not highly subsidized. And the US spends about $20B per year on fossil fuel studies, only half that on renewables subsidies.
Ironic comment of the day.
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** subsidies, not studies
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(I think it should be biased much more against heavy vehicles and those who want to use studded tyres, as they're the ones who actually damage roads)
In much of mainland Europe, the road toll systems do that. Trucks cost a lot more than normal cars. And yes, you are right. I was surprised when someone actually working in the field told me that it's almost entirely trucks that damage roads, normal cars are essentially a non-issue compared to trucks.
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Normal cars can do a lot of damage if on studded tyres. But in most of the developed world, studded tyres are uncommon (they're common here).
But in the summer, nobody is on studded tyres. So there's no reason to disincentive passenger cars from driving. Someone could thinking about driving around Iceland for a couple weeks, and think, "well, the road tax on that is half the cost of a discount ticket to Tenerife, why don't I just do that instead?" and do something that's vastly more polluting and stimulat
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In what manner is "total distance driven during the year" "recording what you're doing"?
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Let's look at this specific issue.
From the AA: https://www.theaa.com/driving-... [theaa.com].
"Why is the mileage recorded on my MOT?
The measure was meant to deter criminal clocking. That's where the mileage of a car is illegally turned back to make it look lower, so the used car can be sold for a higher amount.
Vehicle clocking is rife in some parts of the country, which can make things less safe and more expensive for used car buyers."
I don't think I've ever seen any grumbling about this happening. British car drivers
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Mileage is already recorded during the MOT! We could definitely have this system in the UK with very little extra infrastructure needed
The biggest challenges with switching to an Icelandic system for the UK are:
1. Batshit people getting the wrong end of the stick about what's happening and complaining about invasion of privacy
2. Winners and losers. This taxation switch would, like all changes to taxation bases, create a lot of new winners and (more importantly) new losers. The latter will complain, bitterly
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And who already pay that in fuel taxes, so what exactly is your point?
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People actually living in poverty in the UK often don't own cars. They are best helped by the provision of better public transport. The night bus and night tube services are incredibly helpful for many people in poverty in London, for example.
https://www.health.org.uk/evid... [health.org.uk]
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Where I live, we currently pay a 1$ tax on a liter of gasoline. That's almost 4$ a gallon of tax! Where do you think the government is going to get that money from if the silly leftist fanboys get their way and all vehicles move to EVs in just a few years?
They'll think of something, they always do, this is not going to be the angel that saves the poor old patriotic ICE car from obsolescence at the hands of the evil communist EVs, now try again.
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Here in the US I paid $2.60 per gallon yesterday. (Including taxes... and my credit card will give me 4% of that back).
It's nice, but it certainly sets the price bar very, very high (or low? you get my point) for electrification to take over fossil fuels.
It has never felt so cheap. I remember the 90's when it was $1 / gal, but I was making $4.25/hr at that time. Now McDonald's pays $15/hr so from that ratio today's equivalent would be $4 gas.
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Can't be bothered to fact check because they'd turn out to be right? Nice.
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I suggest you look in the mirror. I did check and I'm correct. Sorry if actual facts bother you.
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There is no Polo EV.
The claim was that it is impossible to sell a new ICE car for under 20k€ in Europe. ICE. Not EV.
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:4, Informative)
MG is currently selling the MG5 for a little under £20k in the UK. 250 mile range, estate/station wagon shape, autopilot. The warranty is 7 years on the car and 8 years on the battery, although in some parts of the world they do a lifetime battery warranty.
It's got a 5 start safety rating from Euro NCAP too.
They can meet all the regulatory requirements, including the safety ones, and still sell that car for 20k at a profit.
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MG is currently selling the MG5 for a little under £20k in the UK. 250 mile range, estate/station wagon shape, autopilot. The warranty is 7 years on the car and 8 years on the battery, although in some parts of the world they do a lifetime battery warranty.
It's got a 5 start safety rating from Euro NCAP too.
They can meet all the regulatory requirements, including the safety ones, and still sell that car for 20k at a profit.
Err where? The MG5 I see on the MG site is £30k+ https://www.mg.co.uk/new-cars/... [mg.co.uk]
Do you mean the MG3 Hybrid+?
Re:Those are not compact cars. (Score:5, Informative)
Have a look on Auto Trader UK. The list price of a vehicle in the UK bares no relation to what people actually pay for it, because there are always massive discounts, "deposit contributions", finance offers and the like.
Try this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/c... [autotrader.co.uk]
You can see plenty under £20k cash price, and that's before you negotiate with the dealer.
(fake post code, I didn't just dox myself)
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Have a look on Auto Trader UK. The list price of a vehicle in the UK bares no relation to what people actually pay for it, because there are always massive discounts, "deposit contributions", finance offers and the like.
Try this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/c... [autotrader.co.uk]
You can see plenty under £20k cash price, and that's before you negotiate with the dealer.
(fake post code, I didn't just dox myself)
You have been a useful human. Thank you.
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What a polite robot...
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Hm... while I do see 3 below $20k, they all round to $20k at two significant figures, IE $19.9k and such.
As a matter of principle, I round $19,990 to $20k because they're clearly just avoiding the '2' at the beginning.
To me, it isn't a strong rebuttal of the idea that new ICE start at $20k.
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MG = Geely = China
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Yes, sorry, I should have made that clear in my post. MG is a Chinese company. Not Geely though, they are owned by SAIC Motor.
They have better technology, better supply chains, and greater volume, all of which help get the price down. The MG5 is sold in China and is practically identical, apart from a few differences between EU and Chinese requirements for stuff like lighting and the instrument cluster, and of course the UK model being right hand drive.
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MG is owned by SAIC. Volvo is owned by Geely.
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Society is pushing to make cars as a "rich person" thing, and production moves to "rich person" models.
There's no value in producing cheap cars, when state legislation is constantly pushing to remove the car as a viable transport method that any citizen can rely upon. So the industry moves accordingly.
The cost of this, is that poor people won't have cars, and will be slaves of a public system that is never, ever going to replace the flexibility of the car. and once the poors are basically forced to rely on
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Wut? The Renault R5 is in production, it's not a concept. And it's not starting sub-20k, either. More like 23. And it definitely counts as compact, it's B segment. The Citroen Ami was also shown, also in production (and has been for four years) and is a microcar.
I think you've sold yourself a narrative with some glaring factual errors.
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Another thing worth mentioning is that cars in many EU countries aren't as central to their culture as they are, say, in the USA. Many people
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So,... are they gonna beg for a trade war & import tariffs with China or are they gonna get down to some hard R&D work instead?
R&D won't do you much good if you don't survive long enough to put it into practice. So it is going to be both, trade war/tariffs to protect them while they get up and running... just like what China did (massive protectionist policies and state subsides is what got EV off the ground in China).
Maybe compete with Tesla too... (Score:2)
Maybe they want to compete with Tesla too. I understand China might have cheaper EVs but I read recently that Tesla wants to lauch a $25,000 EV.
Re:Maybe compete with Tesla too... (Score:5, Informative)
I've been reading that Tesla wants to launch a cheap EV since 2013. I'll believe $25000 Teslas when I see them delivered (not just put for sale along with an apology a year later that the price ended up being higher than what was listed for the pre-order). That said the $35000 Tesla Model 3 is a 40,000EUR car. European prices are higher, so if they are targeting $25000 (30000EUR) then they will already have competition from Volkswagen, Renault, Fiat, and Citroen for their EV models (some of which come in far under that price).
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And their prices have been dropping dramatically since 2013, so what exactly is your point?
Tesla has not announced a $25k car. Do you mean $35k? That was announced in 2017, and was sold for several weeks on-menu, about half a year offmenu, in 2018. Today, $35k in 2017 dollars is $45k. The cheapest Tesla in the US today is $42,5k without the credit, $35k with it.
Tesla has mulled over a $25k car. The first time i
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And their prices have been dropping dramatically since 2013, so what exactly is your point?
This is about budget car availability, not Elon gouging his customers less than he used to. The cheapest version of the cheapest, entry level, Tesla (Model 3) costs EUR 40.000 in Germany for example. The cheapest version of the cheapest, entry level, BYD (Dolphin) available in Germany costs EUR 33.000, if BYD start making the Seagull available here the entry level BYD will beat the snot out of Tesla's current entry level offering. Even with tariffs the Seagull's pricing will likely still beat the snot out o
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It's not "gouging", it's what EVs cost to make. Up until late 2018 Tesla was losing money. Their margins are only "normal" now. Which is way better than with most automakers.
Prepare to be disappointed (this always happens).
1) Chinese auto standards are less stringent than European standards. Bringing cars up to European standards increases their price
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Let me give you an example. The BYD Dolphin in China starts at 99,8k RMB [yocharge.com], or 13k EUR. But if I actually wanted to buy one in Iceland [byd.is] (more details [byd.is]), it'd cost me 4,6M ISK, or 30,8k EUR. Notice the difference? And that's *with* a EUR 6k subsidy; it's 36,8k EUR without it..
Now, the Chinese ones start at a lower-range slower-charging trim which just wouldn't sell in Europe; the base Dolphin is really de minimis to sell here. But even the "Free" trim, which claims "420 km" range (vs. the 427 km combed WLTP
Don't forget the subsidy (Score:3, Insightful)
That subsidy is predicated on encouraging the purchasing of electric cars. As soon as EVs are significant amount of yearly sales then that subsidy goes away. And with every major auto manufacturer pushing electric cars and Tes
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You must be remembering that wrong. /EUR, and then 1.1-1.2 USD/EUR range.
The weakest the USD has been to the EUR ever was a smidge under 1.6 USD to 1 EUR, making 10,000EUR just under 16,000USD.
Ever since the currencies have closed in on parity, mostly ranging in the 1.3-1.5 USD
Here's the history chart:
https://www.macrotrends.net/25... [macrotrends.net]
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There is also a value added tax in Europe of ~20%. That means a $25,000 car is 23,000 euros + tax, and ends up close 28,000 eur. Then , depending on the country, you have registration taxes, but also EV subsidies, in the end the price can vary a bit from one place to another.
Well, kinda sorta (Score:3)
1. Renault showed the production version of the 5, and people love the design, but after more than a decade of reasonable volume EV manufacturing with the Zoe, it’s a shame they couldn’t do improve on range or get the price down further. The group as a whole has done the Dacia Spring, and that’s properly affordable, though. And the 4 looks like it will be a hit, and is a reasonably cheap CUV, too.
2. Peugeot’s cheapest EV is the e208, which has been around for ages. The new car this time was the e408, which is bigger and pricier
3. Citroen’s cheapest EV is the eC3, which has also already been around. The new car this time was the eC4, which is again bigger and pricier. However, it did show a natty refresh of the Ami, which is a microcar EV.
What this is really about, is that the French volume car makers have historically aimed at the family value segment, rather than premium like the German OEMs. And so they’re building out their ranges of family cars that are EVs. This is definitely good news for those of us that want EVs to succeed, but there’s a way to go on affordability yet.
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I think Renault did absolutely the right thing in moving its supermini EV to a dedicated EV platform that also supports other models. I just don't understand why that didn't translate into major consumer benefits compared to the old model running on the modified Clio platform.
The last Zoe refresh was in 2020 and delivered 245 miles range for a pretty fair price at the time. Mine cost about £30k.
But we're nearly five years on, battery tech has improved markedly and got cheaper, the 5 is on a dedicated
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Just a comment, the link in TFS is a Renault Twingo, which is priced "less than €20,000" (the Renault 5 starts at 25 k€).
On the rest I agree. Nothing specifically links their offer to competition with China. They are just making the same cars they have always made, but electrify them at a refresh.
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Renault have a long history of producing very low cost cars, mostly as experiments but they do regularly get turned into products. The Twizy was their original cheap EV, for example.
The problem is they end up just stripping everything back to the absolute minimum, and fitting a small battery. Meanwhile for a similar price you can get a 250 mile range EV from people like MG, and it's a much larger car with all mod cons and a 5 star safety rating. But SAIC have bigger volumes and their own battery manufacturi
Re:Well, kinda sorta (Score:5, Informative)
it’s a shame they couldn’t do improve on range
People buy small cheap tiny cars as city cars. Very few people have a problem with the current range of the Zoe. In fact there are several car companies targeting this market with even less range.
Citroen’s cheapest EV is the eC3
Actually it's the Ami and is half the price of the eC3. - Again small city car with highly limited range. But that suits a lot of people.
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The 5 is small, but it's not tiny. It's just a smidge smaller than the Zoe with worse boot space. And it's really not a cheap car. It's not like it's sub-20k.
I wasn't pinning my hopes on the 5 having a better range than the Zoe, so long as other core tech improvements were there -- more power dense battery, longer range from the same battery, lower price point, or some combo at all. But it hasn't improved at all, despite 4 years of major advances in battery tech, falling prices, and a dedicated EV platform.
Re:Well, kinda sorta (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is that people expect "small car = cheap car", which is a pretty good assumption with an ICE, but not so much with an EV. With an ICE, you mainly pay for size and engine power (whose needs are proportional to size). With an EV, you mainly pay for battery pack size. Making a car smaller can reduce its weight, but the main factors that determine your range are aero. When people want a "small car", they generally don't mean anything that will reduce their cross section much if at all - they generally mean "shorter" lengthwise, with a hatchback. But this shape worsens your Cd by 15-20%. So for a given range, you don't reduce the pack size much if anything by making the car smaller, and thus don't reduce the cost much if anything by going smaller. You can make the car cheaper by reducing the range, but things like reducing the motor power, while they save you *some* money, don't save *that* much by comparison.
If you want to actually reduce battery size, in a small car you need to do something more like an Aptera, e.g. actual significant aero improvements. The Tesla Robotaxi design (which is supposed to share a platform with their next release) also looks like a quite efficient shape, though not to Aptera extremes. But that's not usually what people think of when they think of a "small car" - they want a little back seat and a short but tall "trunk" with a vertical hatch. Which is just not an efficient shape, and efficiency determines pack size for a given range, and pack size is the major cost determiner.
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The problem is that people expect "small car = cheap car", which is a pretty good assumption with an ICE, but not so much with an EV.
I would think exactly the opposite. With an ICE, it's not really that much cheaper to make a small car than a big car. Small engines are just a complex as large engines. A 70 hp engine is not 1/10 the cost of a 700 hp engine. With an EV, though, the cost of the batteries is directly proportional to the energy storage. A smaller car has less mass, smaller cross-sectional area, and smaller surface area (i.e., lower drag), needs less in the way of batteries, and hence tends to be lower in manufacturing co
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Ever priced a lawn mower?
Yes, engine prices are roughly proportional to engine power. It's always been this way. Sports car engines are way more expensive than econobox engines.
As discussed, this is a lesser factor compared to aero drag.
Usually false - they're usually just shorter (length), not narrower or less tall. And instead have a higher Cd due to the rear trunctation. As mentioned, a hatchbac
Re:Well, kinda sorta (Score:5, Interesting)
One of the main problems in Europe is that we don't have battery manufacturing that can compete with China. The tech isn't as advances and the volumes are smaller, so batteries cost us more. A lot of European manufacturers just buy batteries from Chinese manufacturers.
It's not something that can be fixed quickly either, it needs big investments in R&D and in manufacturing. We should probably look to partner with some Chinese companies to develop the technology, or try to hire some Chinese experts who can bring their knowledge with them.
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Yes, but Renault did great in delivering better battery tech in partnership with LG for a decade and then just sort of ... stopped. That's the weird thing.
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Yeah, Renault seems to have given up trying to produce batteries. I'm surprised Nissan are still buying them from the company they spun off, although I heard that the Ariya is a really excellent car.
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Renault was never really a battery producer, although I think they collaborated quite deeply with LG on pack design etc. But surely the whole point of the move to the new platform was they could then go and talk to BYD and CATL etc, and push for a better design, lower price, etc. There must be one heckuva story to tell about how they've ended up where they are. It's especially odd because for years they did great on the core EV tech but their design was meh (and I say that as someone who had three Zoes in s
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I never had a Zoe but their battery lease scheme always seemed a bit strange. Was it because they wanted to get costs down, or was it because they saw it as a cash cow?
It's a bit sad how so many of the early pioneers have fallen so far behind now. Nissan didn't put the investment in and eventually sold off their battery manufacturing. Sanyo was bought by Panasonic and again lagged in development, even with Tesla pushing them.
The Korean manufacturers are doing okay, still not matching China but at least thei
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No, the battery lease schemes were designed to address fears of battery failure at a time when battery costs were much higher than today. This was back in 2013, when the tech was all still really new. It also lowered the apparent costs. My first Zoe in 2015 was on a PCP at £169 pcm for three years, including battery hire. A pretty sweet deal!
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We had massive investments in R&D and manufacturing. Pretty much all of them failed, because they started decades after Chinese did them. And because this isn't competing with some Middle Eastern or African nation with average IQ of 80-90, but PRC with average IQ of around 104. I.e. average person is more intelligent, and therefore there's a larger percentage of people are capable of doing more complex work tasks. A lot of battery related manufacturing things are complex, with a single idiot being able
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Are you seriously trying to say that not only are Americans dumber, but the corporations are unable to simply test applicants and screen out the ones who are going to ruin their process?
You might actually have a point about China investing heavily in education, but of course it's the usual thing of them being simultaneously smarter and their education system being a joke that only produces fake degrees and fake research.
You might want to apply this logic to yourself too. Maybe your low IQ is responsible for
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Jesus fuck, Luckyo, is there really no topic on which you can hold yourself back from posting absolute bilious claptrap? Fucking hell, a discussion of French EV design and somehow we're listening to your pustulent bilge about IQ and immigration.
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Europe and the United States both have amazing battery tech and amazing battery tech manufacturing and if you're willing to you can throw up a factory like that and about a year, year and a half. Modern logistics means it doesn't take a decade to put something together unless you're screwing around
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Had the e208 for a year, have the eC4 now. Really don't like either.
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I thought the e208 is quite nice looking, but not the eC4. How come you ended up with two cars you didn't like??
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The e208 looks good indeed. But it is quite uncomfortable, the windshield is so small that the traffic lights are difficult to see and its charging electronic tends to die - a lot of people had the same problem. Was only able to charge on the fast DC chargers for 6 weeks - this is how long it took for Stellantis to order a replacement.
The eC4, on the other hand, turns like a tanker ship, its infotainment system is a nightmare, and when it is hot outside, its computer hangs so there are no instruments whatso
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What this is really about, is that the French volume car makers have historically aimed at the family value segment, rather than premium like the German OEMs. And so they’re building out their ranges of family cars that are EVs. This is definitely good news for those of us that want EVs to succeed, but there’s a way to go on affordability yet.
VW had their own electric city car based on the Volkswagen UP! called the Volkswagen e-UP! (the UP! was also sold as the Skoda Citigo and Seat Mii) the e-UP! was £10,000 more expensive than the petrol version. VW killed the car in it's entirety a few years back.
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Yeah, I saw a few e-Ups around back in the day. I always saw more Twizys, though. And the G-Whiz, too!
What, already? (Score:2)
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What took them so long?
Greed (why offer small, kinda cheap cars, if you can make much more money on expensive SUVs?) and government subsidies (You have to increase the price so the subsidies the government offer the customers go into the coffers of the car makers.)
The Chinese are not stupid either: You don't find many cheap Chinese cars that can be bought in Europe for basically the same reasons.
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The EU target CO2 will be lower in 2025, so manufacturers have been targeting that year for cheaper cars. https://www.transportenvironme... [transportenvironment.org]
By the way, EVs are supposed to become cheaper to make than ICEs by 2027. https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com]
How do you compete against... (Score:4)
1) Massive government subsidies
2) Low, borderline slave wages in parts of the chinese industry
Answer - you can't, at least not in europe. So the EUs answer is stiff tarifs. If euro car makers can produce cheap EVs then great, but I wonder if any will be profitable or they'll simply be sold at cost price or a small loss in order to push out chinese makes.
Re:How do you compete against... (Score:5, Informative)
Neither of those things are really true though. The reason why Chinese cars are so cheap is because they have incredibly efficient supply chains and much bigger economies of scale on expensive parts like the batteries.
If you look at the batteries in particular, European ones are older technology that is less reliable, so there are higher warranty costs associated with them, and you need more cells to match Chinese capacities. The raw materials they are made from are more expensive than the optimized Chinese designs. The volumes are lower so the R&D cost is spread over fewer packs. A lot of manufacturers and dealers are still on a learning curve too, while for Chinese ones this is all old hat and well understood. There are a lot more EV qualified technicians to do warranty work in China, and parts are more easily available, where as here if an EV develops a warranty issue they will probably be lending out a replacement car for months while they wait for the one qualified guy to diagnose it and for the part to arrive.
Chinese manufacturers went all-in on EVs in order to leapfrog the rest of the world, and it paid off.
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This: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-opinion-how-us-lost-solar-power-race-to-china/
Most of the stuff about subsidies and economies of scale are similar in the PV and EV markets.
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Great link. To quote it:
"It hasnâ(TM)t been driven by state-owned manufacturers, subsidized loans to factories, tariffs on imported modules or theft of foreign technological expertise. Instead, itâ(TM)s come from private businesses convinced of a bright future, investing aggressively and luring global talent to a booming industry â" exactly the entrepreneurial mix that made the US an industrial powerhouse."
Europe doesn't tend to be as keen to throw money at new technology as the US is, but Eu
Re:How do you compete against... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Note that the subsidies in question are similar to the ones that the EU has, e.g. tax breaks for customers, favourable terms for building new factories etc.
It can't be IP theft because the Chinese tech is better. Their drivetrains are more efficient and their batteries are better in pretty much every regard. We know that for sure because we can directly compare Teslas that use Chinese or Western battery tech, depending on where they are manufactured. Unless China has a time machine they must have developed
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Followed by lower R&D costs due to IP theft.
I love how the west has succeeded so much in making IP protection some kind of moral outrage issue. The irony is that the patent system was first put in place as a deal between the state and inventors - the inventor would disclose how their idea worked, and in exchange the state would give them a government backed monopoly. Before this, the belief that once you had an 'idea' you should be able to just sit back and have govt goons going around harassing anyone who might dare to copy you would have been consi
They've also got quality issues (Score:2)
Trying to just had a major major bubble and when you've got something like that you get a mad rush to get stuff to market and you get insanely low quality and lots and lots and lots of safety issues.
I don't think China LeapFrogged the rest of the world. The tech floating around Europe and the United States is pretty solid. They were going through a once in a half centur
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Why do you hate capitalism?
so... (Score:2)
Citroen, Peugeot [and] Renault,
If Fiat joins that group, you have all the european car manufacturers known for unreliable crap in one basket. :-)
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> Citroen, Peugeot [and] Renault, ...known for unreliable crap...
>
Agreed, but they work really well in France because you can't go more than 10 miles without finding a small garage that specialises in your particular manufacturer. No where else in Europe is that true though - so their cars have never sold as well as they do in France (there's a patriotism angle too, but side-step that for a moment).
How this will play out with EVs is anyone's guess. Those small garages were really just one or two peopl
Those Chinese cars are dubious quality (Score:2)
I think that if the car is saw release in the United States the quality would be better but so with the cost. Especially since we have absurd safety requirements because you have to build cars that at least have a small chance of surviving a hit from a Hummer or a Range Rover.
If you want cheap cars you want kei trucks which is why there's such a huge push
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Exactly this - even most of internal combustion's problems go away if you make the darn car a whole lot lighter. Put modern metallurgy and technology into a engine for a passenger car with a horse power target of about 60 because they thing is going to 50's Morgan light weight - 110MPG is probably really achievable.
At that point you are probably well ahead on net emissions and carbon footprint even those engines run a lot dirtier, as long as its less than about 3x dirtier. A lot of cost like road maintenan
Still more expensive than below $7000 in China (Score:2)
In China you can get small EV cars below $7000. 5x times more in EU is hardly a deal...
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umm why would they need to? in this area China are generally well ahead.
All the more reason to put the intelligence services to work on them and steal their tech like they do to us. Having said that, first I'd like to try just offering the PRC some of their own medicine. If you want to sell your cars in Europe then (1) you have to form a 50/50 partnership with a local car company exactly as you are required to do as a foreign investor in China, i.e. no nominal/paper partnerships, (2) all Chinese cars for the EU market get manufactured in the EU by EU workers from scratch, i.e.
Re: have they stole your tech yet? (Score:2)
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Re: have they stole your tech yet? (Score:2)
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Yes, because there are never any gasoline fires when "charging" an ICE car [nfpa.org]. And ICE cars absolutely are never spotted burning on the side of the highway literally 175,000 times a year [consumershield.com] in the US alone, which is actually trending down from the 450,000 vehicle fires in 1980 when EVs were not a thing outside of some hobbyist conversions.
As it turns out, EV fires account for 0.4% of vehicle fires in Sweden where they published statistics [motortrend.com], while plug-in hybrids and EVs have a greater-than-50% market share for ne
Re:Lower cost is good but⦠(Score:5, Insightful)
Unclutch those pearls. Batters last a decade or more [caranddriver.com].
Outside of recalls, where the manufacturer -- not you -- pay for the replacement, model year 2016 and newer cars have reported [recurrentauto.com] covered under warranty.
Then there is the fact that battery prices have been dropping like a rock [teslarati.com] (about 90%) over the last 15 years. With all of the research in new battery chemistry and process improvements, what it will cost to replace an EV battery 10 years from now isn't something you should be considering. They're going to be significantly less than replacing a transmission or ICE engine.
Then, of course, there's the fact that EVs have not only significantly fewer parts to begin with, they have fewer MOVING parts and a great deal less maintenance. Less to go wrong, less to fix, cheaper to operate.
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So... if the vehicle is no good to me with 70% the range I'm SOL? As long as it is at 71% when the warranty is ending, it doesn't matter if I want to travel longer distances then too bad for me? That's a really shit deal man, it's no wonder used EVs are close to worthless.
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You have it backwards. That's what is warranted. It won't drop below 70% or it will be replaced.
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I understand. You're saying if the battery gets down to 71% percent, Tesla says it is good enough and not replacing it under warranty. YOU'RE saying "no, I need more than 71%, I HAVE to go at least 190 miles without needing to stop to charge".
You're cherry picking a 1-in-a-million possible problem, because that type of degredation is something only seen after many years & miles of driving. So far, only after the year/mileage has passed according to companies who've been using Teslas as taxis for years a
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Trying to claim the car is no good to you if you can't do 190+ miles without stopping to charge is absurd.
Yes i know, it is rare for people to travel long distances. Either you think that or you don't care about them.
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I mean, that's just how warranties work. Outside the warranty period, the warranty doesn't operate. Failures within the warranty period have to be covered by the terms of the warranty.
(Also, for many EVs, it's 80%, not 70%. Tesla does this because Elon)
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