Citing EV 'Rollercoaster' In US, BMW Invests In Internal Combustion (msn.com) 180
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Financial Times: BMW has pledged to continue investing in combustion engine and hybrid technology as it warned of a "rollercoaster ride" in the US transition to electric vehicles following the return of Donald Trump as president. Board member Jochen Goller said the group remained optimistic about sales of petrol and plug-in hybrids in the US even if demand for EVs slowed over the next few years on the back of policy changes under the new administration.
"I think it would be naive to believe that the move towards electrification is a one-way road. It will be a rollercoaster ride," Goller, who is in charge of customer, brands, and sales, told the Financial Times at BMW's headquarters in Munich. "This is why we are investing in our combustion engines," he said. "We are investing in modern plug-in hybrids. And we will continue rolling out electric cars." BMW faces significant challenges in the Chinese market, with a 13% decline in sales amid intensifying price competition and growing dominance of domestic brands. Analysts note that while the company still sees China as a growing market, pricing pressures and an overcrowded automotive sector pose ongoing risks to BMW's long-term positioning.
It'll likely become even more difficult for BMW and other automotive companies to gain market share in the Chinese market with BYD's latest announcement. The Chinese automaker said it will be offering its advanced "God's Eye" autonomous technology in mass-market EVs like the $9,500 Seagull, while expanding globally with government-based EV initiatives.
"I think it would be naive to believe that the move towards electrification is a one-way road. It will be a rollercoaster ride," Goller, who is in charge of customer, brands, and sales, told the Financial Times at BMW's headquarters in Munich. "This is why we are investing in our combustion engines," he said. "We are investing in modern plug-in hybrids. And we will continue rolling out electric cars." BMW faces significant challenges in the Chinese market, with a 13% decline in sales amid intensifying price competition and growing dominance of domestic brands. Analysts note that while the company still sees China as a growing market, pricing pressures and an overcrowded automotive sector pose ongoing risks to BMW's long-term positioning.
It'll likely become even more difficult for BMW and other automotive companies to gain market share in the Chinese market with BYD's latest announcement. The Chinese automaker said it will be offering its advanced "God's Eye" autonomous technology in mass-market EVs like the $9,500 Seagull, while expanding globally with government-based EV initiatives.
TFA Link (Score:5, Informative)
It's Trump (Score:5, Informative)
I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning. It's clear from his $55 billion dollar pay package, the 5-year-old drivetrain on Teslas and The fact that without government subsidies he only makes $500 per car that he doesn't intend for the company to live all that much longer. He's going to get what he can out of it but I wonder what if anything are his plans after that.
Assuming we ever have another election (with how much voter suppression we had last cycle I have doubts) then he's going to lose his SpaceX contracts. The military considers him a national security risk after the stunt he pulled in Ukraine. He's always going to be rich of course because we don't put guys like him in the poor house.
I suspect his plan is to try and get into the treasury and start using a cryptocurrency that he personally controls for government payments thereby effectively making him our entire banking system, kind of like how China has that everything app. That's what he's been talking about with X for some time.
It remains to be seen if we're dumb enough to let him do it.
Re:It's Trump (Score:4, Informative)
I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning. It's clear from his $55 billion dollar pay package, the 5-year-old drivetrain on Teslas and The fact that without government subsidies he only makes $500 per car that he doesn't intend for the company to live all that much longer.
People still buy the Toyota Camry, and that's basically been the same car for damn near close to two decades. Swap out the cheese grater front grille and the whale-tail ass with their retro equivalents and you've got a car straight out of the early 2000s. If Toyota can do it successfully, Tesla can continue to milk their current lineup for many years to come. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with Tesla's 5-year-old powertrain; it still smokes most of the ICE vehicles on the road.
Musk's bigger problem is that his political antics have been turning off the usual demographic that buys EVs.
I suspect his plan is to try and get into the treasury and start using a cryptocurrency that he personally controls for government payments thereby effectively making him our entire banking system, kind of like how China has that everything app.
Trump banned CBDCs, [reuters.com] so you're barking up the wrong tree there. I'm sure there's still a foul plot afoot, but that's probably not it. It will probably be like the Cybertruck - something so bad most people assumed it was just Musk trolling, but it ends up being real. Or like his Sieg Heil salute...
Dude you do not know of what you speak (Score:2)
Musk's political antics are because his businesses are falling apart and he knows it. He's always relied on government programs for everything except for that one golden parachute he got from PayPal during the
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The Camry from today is a far cry from a Camry 20 years ago. There's no comparison in terms of safety, performance, build quality and features.
I'll give you that by going hybrid-only for the 2025 model year, Toyota has finally made some much needed changes to the car. But prior to that, they got away with selling a car with relatively poor performance for its class (unless you opted for the larger engine) for decades, and it still sold well. As you said though, those changes came with a much higher price tag.
By comparison, I've test driven a Model 3 and nothing about the car feels dated. Plus, when you stomp on it, there's no question about it
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Pretty much every electric car has excess power because otherwise the recuperation wouldn't be very effective.
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Absolutely none of that is true. You can get EVs with only moderate acceleration — this is true of every single EV supermini on the market with the exception of the Alpine a290, and even that’s not that fast (just under 7 secs). And those EVs all have good regen, enough to enable one-pedal driving.
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Even Dacia Spring has excellent acceleration - up to a point.
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I think the Dacia Spring is a great addition to the market, but in what possible world is an acceleration of 0 to 60 in 14 seconds “excellent”, in the sense of fast? Even 0 to 30 is 6 seconds! That’s stately; languid; sedate; majestic. It isn’t excellent!
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Wow, whoever posted this used in AI (Score:4, Funny)
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is for all the common enemy to get rid of. He's a fraud and he manipulated the election with the help of AI and gerrymandering maps preventing 37 millions democrat voters to vote.
Stopped reading at "gerrymandering " which has no effect on a Presidential election
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I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning.
A few things about Elon: (1) he gets bored easily; (2) his behavior is at odds with Tesla customers/investors; (3) he is currently getting a taste of ultimate power-- operating within an unchecked executive branch of the post powerful country on Earth.
Remember what Elon said to advertisers who threatened to boycott X? "Go fuck yourself." That's what we're dealing with here.
I suspect Elon is growing bored of Tesla and wants to swap-out his shares for something potentially MUCH bigger-- leaving everyone else
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We can argue about EV vs. ICE solutions until the cows come home to watch the pigs fly.
Until we invent the solutions to replace ALL the other shit we need petroleum for (which is to say a metric fuckton), the conversation is basically pointless.
It's also quite pointless because of how blatantly political it is. Anything that political usually doesn't have any interest in mind other than feeding Greed trying to make a profit off making it political. (For those who might assume that political wool being pu
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The latest analysis suggests that Trump has just taken a huge dump on the automative industry with his 25% tariffs on steel and aluminium imports.
Oh well.
Considering that same auto industry is up to their eyeballs in inventory 12+ months old sitting on lots rotting due to Greed, I'd say the auto industry has a LOT more problems than raw material costs.
In other words, don't worry too much. Demand has gone way down for that end product still priced at delusional. Let 'em rot.
What about the old i3 with Range Extender...? (Score:2)
Why not something like the i3 with the range extender? Something like that, I know people who swear by those because they are arguably the best of both worlds, especially here in the US where the power grid isn't really reliable in places.
Re: What about the old i3 with Range Extender...? (Score:2)
BMW makes a lot of motorcycle engines, so I guess they are still equipped to build hybrid drivetrains like that of the i3.
With battery density increasing, it could be possible to have that small displacement engine there idle most of the time just in case 100 or 200 miles of ev range are not enough.
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Risky move (Score:3)
Except there is no guarantee Trump will allow Germany to beach its lifeboat here. Trump is threatening 25% tariffs on EU auto imports. Does BMW's announcement mean they know something we don't?
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The oil price can't really go down without also adding more subsidies to fracking. Current levels of fracking in USA depends on the current high oil prices.
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Trump is threatening 25% tariffs on EU auto imports. Does BMW's announcement mean they know something we don't?
BMW manufacture in the USA. Not just manufacture in the USA, their single largest plant is in the USA. They are unaffected by tariffs. In fact some 70% of the BMWs manufactured in the USA are currently exported.
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BMW just can't code (Score:2)
I own a BMW i3. I bought it new in late 2016. Since then I have driven or rented 6 other modern BMWs.
BMW should be legally restricted from doing anything with an electronic circuit involved.
By comparison, Tesla, BYD and Nio are substantially better. And if BYD is in business and they appear financially s
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BMW should be legally restricted from doing anything with an electronic circuit involved.
The best part about recent BMWs is how much "coding" you, the owner can do. Thousands of parameters affecting pretty much every element of the vehicle, it's actually pretty mind blowing. From lighting, HVAC and entertainment to braking, steering and stability control there is stuff you can tune in almost every ECU. At your own risk of course.
https://www.bimmergeeks.net/pr... [bimmergeeks.net]
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The truth is that only car company with a decent UX department for their infotainment is Tesla.
Up to the point that I consider Tesla an IT company that installs it's software on car-shaped hardware.
And the trend of moving everything to a touch screen does not work for cars, even with good UI/UX design.
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Dysfunctional country (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure a lot of multinationals are looking at the US as a lost cause right now. How can you do business in a country that is being run with the sole purpose of exacting petty retribution on as many people as possible.
Re: Dysfunctional country (Score:4, Insightful)
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The American dream is to do what you want and to make money doing something you're good at. Not to be cuddled by a government to the point where people get stuck in arrested development with a childlike mentality where think they should get whatever they want for free and can throw a tantrum when they don't.
In the end Trump massively upsetting the economy is going to be a positive thing, but it will get messy at first as the deck is getting reshuffled.
When you're a decade into the "messy at first" part will you admit you were wrong? They're stacking the deck right now for the uber-rich to control even more aspects of our country. In fact, putting one of them in charge of a made-up organization whose sole purpose seems to be to fuck shit up with no oversight and no one able to stand up to them or tell them no. This is spoiled rich kids doing what spoiled rich kids do on a scale never seen in the modern age in what used to be one of the most powerful natio
EVs aren't about being green for most (Score:4, Informative)
All this focus on EVs and the environment misses the point. I didn't buy 2 EVs to save the planet. I bought them because EVs are far cheaper to run than ICEs, and they're far more reliable. There are no $250 oil changes every 3 months or annual "service intervals" at $2K a pop. It's also significantly cheaper to fill an EV than an ICE. Our main EV (Model X) used $1700 in electricity last year with zero scheduled maintenance to cover 28K miles. That's $0.06/mile. The SUV we had before that cost $110 to fill and got 18 miles to the gallon if you took it easy. It also required an annual recommended service at Lexus that was never less than $1500. So the Tesla cost $1700 to cover 28,000 miles, the Lexus cost $6000 in fuel plus $1000 in oil changes, and a $1500 annual service. So to drive the same distance in comparable cars, the EV cost $1700 while the ICE cost $8500, so for us, ICEs were 5x more expensive to drive. There's absolutely no way I will ever go back to an ICE for a daily driver, and arguments against EVs are always from people who don't have one. Now, they're not a good fit for everybody. Regardless of what others claim, you really need an EV charger at home if you drive more than 20 miles a day. If you take regular road trips beyond 150 miles each way, you're going to find stopping to charge for 20 minutes isn't fun regardless of what toys are available on the touch screen. So there are caveats, but for us, it's been a significantly better experience than we had with 2 Lexus ICEs.
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Re: EVs aren't about being green for most (Score:2)
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I bought them because EVs are far cheaper to run than ICEs, and they're far more reliable. There are no $250 oil changes every 3 months or annual "service intervals" at $2K a pop.
Nobody in their right mind spends $250 on an oil change and $2k on an annual service. At those prices no wonder you think ICE's are expensive
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I don't know how long your loan was, but 28,000 miles in even just the 8 years is under 300 miles a month. Why would you have even had to change the tires?
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There are no $250 oil changes every 3 months or annual "service intervals" at $2K a pop.
While I'm with you and own an EV now myself, this stupid meme has to die. No new car needs an oil change every three months, and they don't have annual service intervals either. Most cars demand an oil change every 2 years or 25,000 miles or so.
If you want to talk about cost of maintenance then stick to the actual things that need maintain, rather than what the local garage is trying to upsell you on. Which are numerous in their own right, an engine has lots of moving parts that wear over time and few years
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If you take regular road trips beyond 150 miles each way, you're going to find stopping to charge for 20 minutes isn't fun regardless of what toys are available on the touch screen.
If you're driving 150 miles each way you should absolutely stop 20minutes regardless of what you drive. Driver fatigue is responsible for about 20% of fatal accidents. Get to where you're going safely, not quickly. Stop smell the roses, drink a coffee, stretch your legs, SURVIVE. There's a reason some countries have legal requirements for 15min breaks every 2 hours of driving for professional drivers. This is even worse for driving on a straight long highway, which ... well America.
What an admission by BMW (Score:2)
With this, they’re effectively saying they’re caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. On one side, Trump’s America which he’s committed to ICE (so this announcement makes sense) and tariffs on steel and quite possibly EU autos in the future (so this announcement makes less sense). OTOH, there’s China, which was a growth driver for them, but in which they’re losing ground and profitability due to Chinese OEMs’ offerings and a market focused on EVs. And then t
It's not the cost or the charging, it's the car. (Score:3)
Granted, some of these things are just related to the learning curve and my co-workers did tell me "you get used to it". But I didn't see how ANY of them contributed to an improved experience over my truck. And many contributed to unsafe driving. Sorry Elon, your 'encyclopedia of control settings' on the dash is one of the worst ergonomic setups I've ever seen. I want buttons and levers for commonly used settings, like wiper intervals.
I'm 100% for removing all subsidies and government programs to increase the use of electric cars. Let the market decide. It may take another 20 years for us boomers to get out of the way. But at least *I* won't have to pay for it.
Re:It's not the cost or the charging, it's the car (Score:5, Insightful)
After renting a BMW a couple of weeks ago, I'll never own a gas car. Sure, the acceleration is terrible. But it's like learning to drive all over again. It's difficult to know how fast one is driving as there's inconsistent engine sound. The jerky acceleration as the gears shift was nerve racking. The car itself was noisy, far too much road and engine noise fo ra car this expensive. Refuelling at the office was a PIA, they didn't have a gas station, so I had to go to a gas station, wait in line, then stand in the freezing cold holding a smelly gas pump to refill the tank, rather than just waking up to a full charge in the morning. THe damn thing shut off at a traffic light when I opened the door becuase I thought it was not closed tightly and only knew it when the light changed to green and woudln't go. And hte field of view was just awful, all I could see was hood.
Granted, some of these things are just related to the learning curve and my co-workers did tell me 'you get used to it." But I didn't see how ANY of them contributed to an improved experience over my Ioniq 5. And many contributed to unsafe driving.
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I would have expected a user with a UID as low as yours would have gotten used to gas cars in back in 1980.
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I once drove a Tractor and decided that the internal combustion engine just isn't useful for a car. - That's an analogy of what you just said. I'm with you by the way. I've driven plenty of Teslas and I it was primarily the reason which is why my current EV is not a Tesla. They are simply rubbish cars. To compare them to EVs on the other hand is just stupid.
To look at the things you list for example: I can configure my car to respond like an automatic and coast. I can configure it to respond like a manual a
So many extreme views (Score:2)
The political winds are wildly distorting peoples' EV outlooks.
I know it sounds ridiculous, but take just a moment of time, close your eyes, and imagine a future where we've solved most of our climate concerns. What does that world look like for the United States, for example? Will everyone be driving a gas car? Will everyone be taking mass transit? The answer to both of these questions is probably no.
In countries like the United States you can't shift everyone to mass transit without a mass migration t
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EVs also currently have way more value in an urban area. That's where you get concentrations of exhaust, which also leads to ozone problems in the summer. It's where you get stop and go traffic that wastes fuel. And it's where you are generally driving shorter distances.
No point rallying against them because it really is the better option for a lot of people by population, just not necessarily by land area.
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Insightful)
EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore, it's lack of charging infrastructure (possibly also mixed a bit with an unwillingness to make a 30 minute DCFC pit stop during road trips) and/or concerns over long-term battery calendar lifespan. A smaller, but probably still significant factor is that many Americans see their car as an extension of their identity, and EV ownership may not necessarily align with some folks' political leanings.
As far as hybrid pricing goes, back when my partner and I were shopping for his new car, we looked at the pricing for a Prius and noped right out of that. The '23 Bolt EUV ended up being substantially cheaper. I'm sure if road tripping was a concern the Prius would've been a better fit, but we just needed a daily commuter that would be charged at home every night, and for our use case the extra expense and complexity of a hybrid powertrain was just superfluous. Do we regret our decision? Not at all. In fact, a few months later I ended up trading in my '19 Nissan Versa for another Bolt.
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EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore..
Uh, if you really believe cost isn’t the issue with an average price being damn near $50K for a car, do the quick math on what percentage of society YOU think can afford a $700+ car payment for the better part of a decade.
And that’s before you add the monthly auto insurance cost to insure THE most overpriced shitboxes ever made in the history of car making. Meaning it might last long enough for you to pay off the loan before it breaks or becomes fashionably obsolete.
Yes. Price still matters. L
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EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore..
Uh, if you really believe cost isn’t the issue with an average price being damn near $50K for a car, do the quick math on what percentage of society YOU think can afford a $700+ car payment for the better part of a decade.
If they can't afford a Model 3 at ~$43k, then they also can't afford most new cars with gasoline engines, so those folks likely don't affect new car sales all that much.
And when they buy a used car, the probability of them getting an EV is likely to be roughly proportional to the percentage of new car buyers who bought an EV three to five years earlier, because that's what is going to be available on the used car market. That, in turn, makes them pretty much completely irrelevant to the discussion, period,
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That is the problem with the average. Add the prices of a Dacia and a Ferrari, divide by two and the result will look like everyone is driving a Porsche.
Also, most people don't buy new cars anyway.
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You're not wrong to point this out, since it's a major error made in discussing lots of things. Especially salaries. But it's not quite that big an issue with car sales.
The best selling vehicle in the US in 2024 was the F-150, which starts at $36K for the lowest trim. Not far off from the $48K average. Silverado was #2 at $37K for the most basic model. It's not until you get to the Honda Civic at #10 that the MSRP gets under $25K, again only at the lowest trim.
So a $48K average is definitely skewed because
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If they can't afford a Model 3 at ~$43k, then they also can't afford most new cars with gasoline engines
except to the extent that EV owners keep their cars longer, thus delaying their ability to purchase used EVs.
You're right. A lot of people can't afford new cars period. But EVs are also a better value for the money because of longevity.
Price is definitely a problem here. But it's because there are not enough used EVs on the market. They've been around for a while but because of how sales and production are accelerating, most are recent purchases.
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Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Interesting)
My car is 18 years old. It was paid off 14 years ago.
Continuing to drive my car is cheaper than any EV on the market, or any EV that WILL be on the market in my lifetime.
Mine is 25 years old and has 364k miles. For my kids I have 3 others, ranging from 13 to 22 years old. All run fine. Keeping them running as long as possible has got to be more energy efficient than scrapping them and manufacturing new cars. It certainly is easier on my wallet
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Absolutely. We've always been making new cars. Throwing out old cars just drives up prices.
People don't seem to understand that new sales drive adoption but most people are buying used. I think EVs are the better buy for new if the price isn't overblown. But I'm not in the market for new right now.
The longevity might be too good, though. There might not be such a large market of used EVs. Or at least that would be true if cabin interiors were made to be able to be refreshed easily. Everything is viny
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Insightful)
This issue is explicitly about politics. The CEO said that himself. And it should be no surprise, uncertainty is one of those things which comes along with corruption and holds back economic development in invisible but very significant ways. We've been throwing away legal precedent right and left, and now we're throwing away legislative precedent, and this is one of the consequences.
I'll quote IvÃn Duque here:
How can you invest in a country where your profits depend on the mood of the president?
oil companies too (Score:2)
Ask the oil companies about this. Or Steel. Or any industry that runs afoul of the crazy green enviro people
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I believe it would be more appropriate to use "voters" than "president".
Not really. The voters used to have a choice between red and blue and still do now. But the political uncertainty is a relatively recent thing. For the longest time regulation and law has been stable and slow moving. It's only a post Obama case where the entire political identity involves in completely undoing every policy of the other party.
Sure the different parties have always had their difference of opinions but they have historically played out far more subtly than the presidential decree declaring eve
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President Musk owns an EV company.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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That's the point of making it $50k. So you have to lease it and get into a cycle of endless debt. Ownership is not for the masses and is bad for profits. If I sell you a car you might come back in 3 years or 10 years for a new one. If I lease you a car, then you will come back because you have no choice. Can't afford the payment to buy, look at these nice lease deals, just a few grand down upfront and this low payment for 36 months, then you have no equity and can do it all over again.
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The car lease is for the people who would have traded in at 36 months anyway. They would have gotten a much worse deal trading into a dealer. But the lease agreement keeps the vehicle in a better condition for resale, so it's a bit of a win-win for them.
Either way, the car doesn't get scrapped - it lives for a long time after as a used vehicle.
And cars have no equity. The only way to get your money's worth is to buy a car and keep it for 10+ years.
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While your argument for leases is what they tell you that it is for, the real truth is most people are buying a car based on a payment and not thinking about 3 years from now. A lease is a lower payment, and that is what it takes to get people into a car.
The average lease payment for a Toyota Corolla is $298 per month for a 36-month term with 12,000 miles per year and $2,000 due at signing. Using the average rate from my local credit union of 7.479% over 60 months on a new car we are at $621.93 a month. Rou
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Insightful)
Or is it the lack of $7500 handout where taxpayers helped pay for people's new cars?
Technically, the rebate is your own money. The government is saying "If you want to spend $7,500 of your tax dollars on an EV, you can have it back to do so." You'd think more conservatives would be on board with this, because then you know for damn sure that money isn't going to pay for underwater basket weavers in Venezuela to have sex changes.
It's amazing how big oil has been able to successfully manipulate the narrative and make some people hate the idea that they could have autonomy over how some of their tax money is spent.
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Informative)
You'd think more conservatives would be on board with this, because then you know for damn sure that money isn't going to pay for underwater basket weavers in Venezuela to have sex changes.
They are lined up to suck Elon's dick while simultaneously shouting about how EVs are woke and anyone who thinks we should drive them is a woke liberal. The one thing they cannot do is "think".
Bullshit (Score:2)
For the right wing the general complaint is they shouldn't have to put money in the pot. The counters of that is that it's basically impossible to be a functional human being without the stuff built from that pot.
So the complaint is as a right-winger that you don't want an EV but you still have to pitch in so somebody else can buy one.
Honestly with regards to cars I kind of agree with them.
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Let's say that society needs children in order to continue. Even more so if Social Security is a ponzi scheme that will collapse without population growth. Nobody would want to take on the financial burden but everyone reaps the rewards. That's exactly the sort of thing that is usually funded by taxpayers. It's more than just social security. The world would become wholly incompetent without another generation to take over. And education is part of it too.
Re: Fuel (Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid) (Score:2)
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What concerns people are pennies they have to pay per mile
Then they should be concerned about the taxes they pay to support the MIC which in turn supports the oil industry and makes their ICEVs possible.
ICE doesn't have to equate to fossil fuels. We know how to produce carbon neutral fuels that are a direct replacement for fossil fuels.
And if we do that, then people will have to pay a lot more per mile, eliminating the benefit of the ICEV.
Re:Fuel (Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid) (Score:5, Informative)
It's amazing how big oil has been able to successfully manipulate the narrative and make some people hate the idea that they could have autonomy over how some of their tax money is spent.
I'm amazed how "Big EV" has controlled the narrative that ICE equates to fossil fuels when carbon neutral fuels exist.
The problem is not the ICE, the problem is fossil fuels. Bring carbon neutral fuels to market and one of the biggest reasons for owning a BEV evaporates. Not needing to stop at a filling station for fuel must rank highly for buying a BEV but natural gas vehicles are a thing, and apparently quite popular for municipal vehicles like solid waste collection trucks, street sweepers, and common heavy duty pickups. There's a number of websites that offer used Ford F-250 CNGV trucks for sale, with the prior owner being some city or perhaps a corporate fleet vehicle. Maybe not an ideal daily driver but could be a nice work truck or something to tow a boat or camper trailer. CNG is still a fossil fuel but produces half the CO2 of diesel, offers fill up at home and at filing stations equipped with CNG pumps, and as cities move to synthesized alternatives to natural gas a potential for becoming carbon neutral.
We don't need BEVs to have "green" transportation. We can switch the fuel for the ICEVs we already have instead.
Yes, the problem is ICE. More specifically the problem is that ICE is an outdated technology with a 20% energy efficiency that people like you are talking up into a world beating alternative to BEVs who have a 70-90% energy efficiency and that don't care whether the electricity they run on comes from a solar, wind, natgas, nuclear plant or a giant array of dynamo equipped hamster wheels supplemented by a potato battery array to account for bathroom breaks and feeding times. Now please list all the alternative carbon neutral fuels that can beat EVs on price per driven kilometre and how you are going to boost ICE energy efficiency to 70%.
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Can you explain how we are going to find all the minerals needed to make BEVs cheap enough to replace most every ICEV?
You mention a need to have a low cost per mile but then mention some need for higher thermodynamic efficiency. Why care about thermodynamic efficiency if the fuel is cheap and carbon neutral? We don't need to improve efficiency to reach our goal of cheap and carbon neutral transportation, it would help but it is not required.
The technology for carbon neutral hydrocarbon fuels has existed for nearly a century now. On the other hand is the BEV technology, a technology that still can't compete on capability with ICEVs. What is keeping the BEV competitive with ICEVs is basic economics. If BEVs are cheaper to operate than an equivalent ICEV then more people will buy the BEV. As demand for BEVs drive up prices then the advantage switches back to the ICEV and people buy those instead. For the BEV to beat out the ICEV we'd need to have mining of raw materials for batteries keep up with demand. Opening new mines is a slow process, often taking a decade. Then we'd need refineries, and battery factories.
Talk up the BEV if you like but we are at least 30 years from having enough mining and manufacturing to shift cars and light trucks to have a majority BEV. In the mean time we should be developing carbon neutral fuels, both as a means to lower CO2 emissions as BEV production ramps up, and as a hedge against the BEV transition failing.
Are carbon neutral fuels in ICEVs cheaper per mile than carbon neutral electricity to BEVs? Not likely, and certainly not if demand exceeds production. That's just telling us we need to invest in developing the technology and infrastructure behind carbon neutral fuels. We certainly need to develop technology and infrastructure on BEVs to get them where they can replace ICEVs and fossil fuels.
Don't change the subject, I do believe you were going to list for us all the alternative carbon neutral fuels that can beat EVs on price per driven kilometre and how you are going to boost ICE energy efficiency to 70%.
Re:Fuel (Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid) (Score:4, Insightful)
Can you define "moving the goalposts" in the context of argumentation?
I'll give you an example: first talking about cost per unit distance, then talking about how ICE doesn't necessarily need to be "fossil" fuels, but in practicality the only way that an ICE car can get to that cost per unit distance is on fossil fuels due to inherent inefficiencies in controlling small explosions to make mechanical energy, and the complete lack of any form of scale production of synthetic fuels at any cost.
And then when called on on this very obvious logic flaw - one you've been presented with over and over through time by multiple people including myself - you then "whatabout" other costs that have absolutely nothing to do with your original premise.
Internal combustion served us very well for like 100 years, but it's time for it to go because we have far simpler and more efficient modes of creating that mechanical energy from electricity, and far more efficient ways to extract energy from the same fuels to make electricity. Please stop hanging onto your obsolete tech because of familiarity. Oh, and please actually listen to the obvious facts people are telling you about this obsolete tech, because it's clear you haven't been.
Also, aren't you always in here trying to convince people about how great nuclear power is? Why would you be doing that, but still clinging to your obsolete internal combustion engine when you could be driving an EV that is powered by nuclear?
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Informative)
EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
In the US. Here is a nice review of Chinese cars: https://www.motortrend.com/rev... [motortrend.com]
As a result, China is now at more than 50% of new car sales being EVs. Their government set a goal of 50% sales by 2030, but it has already been achieved.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
I wonder how China's government's efforts compare with Norway's, who, iinm, are the real trail blazers when it comes to EVs.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:3)
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Apples and oranges. The Norwegian government has had a very successful program focused on consumption, while China has had a very successful program focused on production, first and foremost.
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Yes. And I’m pretty sure they saw this as a way to eventually win in the automative space over the US and, to a lesser extent, European and Japanese OEMs, by leveraging the fact that Chinese consumers aren’t culturally invested in ICE the way that so many in the West are, and thus they could move to a more modern tech while western countries got mired in culture wars.
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Long range EVs have reached price parity with fossil fuel cars now. Sometimes they are even cheaper with available discounts.
MG are a good example to use. Long range cars that are cheaper than other brand's petrol models, and better built.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2, Informative)
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As I keep saying, what is the point of having a vehicle with better acceleration if you know you are wrecking it every time you accelerate hard?
The people who think that not ever accelerating hard will prolong your battery life are stupid. We've talked about lithium islanding quite a bit on this site. Look it up.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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We talked about it here, this is not a reputable source but there were links.
Unfortunately I cannot find the story with slashdot search (which was always worthless) or google search (which is increasingly useless) even using site:.
Mine this explanation for keywords: Researchers built a transparent lithium cell and found that lithium migrates through electrolyte in the direction of current flow. Fast charging causes islanding. High current flow in the discharge direction actually reattaches the lithium to th
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
if you want maximum battery life you should slow charge as much as possible
So then you being up another thing that makes me uncomfortable. I can't simply charge my car quickly and get it over with, it has to be sitting partly charged in my driveway for long periods of time or I will wreck it. There just seems to be many pitfalls that leave the owner at the mercy of a battery replacement. I use it how I use it and I don't want to have to be constantly worried about whether I did something to reduce the range. I don't want to the range to fall at all.
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You CAN simply charge your car quickly and get it over with, but if you do it ALL THE TIME then it will reduce your battery life. That IS a real problem, and one which we hope will be solved with solid state batteries.
Gasoline cars' range falls over time until the engine eventually has to be rebuilt to get it back. Fuel injectors and cylinder rings are consumable items. They start with more range, so it doesn't impact us as much.
Your gasoline car is benefiting from massive subsidies. If it were priced fairl
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I had an ICE engine fail on me once because I ran it a long time with almost no oil and it cost me $500 CDN to r
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Yes, yes they keep talking about solid state batteries, but will they be in an affordable vehicle and will there be enough fast chargers around everywhere to take full advantage of the charging speed in my lifetime?
The former, sure. The latter, not if the anti-science buffoons have their way.
I had an ICE engine fail on me once because I ran it a long time with almost no oil and it cost me $500 CDN to replace it with a comparable used engine.
I assume you did the swap yourself, at that cost. Most people cannot.
EVs just seem way, way more inconvenient to me.
The ICE is more convenient than the EV if you ignore all of the impact from it which is affecting you.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
I spent a lot of my life looking for reasons not to be greedy and take or do what I wanted, but sadly the world just ended up showing me the people who try to be good and do the right thing are just suckers.
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No, a mechanic did it for 500. He had the motor in his junk pile.
Most mechanics will not even install a used motor for you, or if they do, they will offer no warranty on parts or labor. A reputable shop will only install a reman or crate motor.
I spent a lot of my life looking for reasons not to be greedy and take or do what I wanted, but sadly the world just ended up showing me the people who try to be good and do the right thing are just suckers.
And that's how we get more of what we're seeing now, where systems break down because nobody will maintain them.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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I want a plugin hybrid. My usage fits well with them, and most days, I'd never get past the battery. But those days I take cross country trips (a few times a year) I won't need to worry about my route and where to take 20-minute breaks.
Sadly, I bought a new BMW in 2021, and they didn't have a good plugin-hybrid X5M, so it's going to be at least until 2030 until I consider it.
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For every gas-guzzler that you pledge to buy, I pledge not to buy ten. Choke on those emissions, death cultist.
Major racing series are switching to e-fuels now, that is where development is headed and it will trickle down to road cars in time. Yes, for most people for whom a car is just another appliance BEVs are fine, but zero emissions ICE cars are the future for enthusiasts.
https://global.honda/en/tech/m... [global.honda]
No reason we can't have both - engaging cars and low emissions. BMW knows this. So does Porsche.
https://www.topspeed.com/porsc... [topspeed.com]
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