Citing EV 'Rollercoaster' In US, BMW Invests In Internal Combustion (msn.com) 102
An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Financial Times: BMW has pledged to continue investing in combustion engine and hybrid technology as it warned of a "rollercoaster ride" in the US transition to electric vehicles following the return of Donald Trump as president. Board member Jochen Goller said the group remained optimistic about sales of petrol and plug-in hybrids in the US even if demand for EVs slowed over the next few years on the back of policy changes under the new administration.
"I think it would be naive to believe that the move towards electrification is a one-way road. It will be a rollercoaster ride," Goller, who is in charge of customer, brands, and sales, told the Financial Times at BMW's headquarters in Munich. "This is why we are investing in our combustion engines," he said. "We are investing in modern plug-in hybrids. And we will continue rolling out electric cars." BMW faces significant challenges in the Chinese market, with a 13% decline in sales amid intensifying price competition and growing dominance of domestic brands. Analysts note that while the company still sees China as a growing market, pricing pressures and an overcrowded automotive sector pose ongoing risks to BMW's long-term positioning.
It'll likely become even more difficult for BMW and other automotive companies to gain market share in the Chinese market with BYD's latest announcement. The Chinese automaker said it will be offering its advanced "God's Eye" autonomous technology in mass-market EVs like the $9,500 Seagull, while expanding globally with government-based EV initiatives.
"I think it would be naive to believe that the move towards electrification is a one-way road. It will be a rollercoaster ride," Goller, who is in charge of customer, brands, and sales, told the Financial Times at BMW's headquarters in Munich. "This is why we are investing in our combustion engines," he said. "We are investing in modern plug-in hybrids. And we will continue rolling out electric cars." BMW faces significant challenges in the Chinese market, with a 13% decline in sales amid intensifying price competition and growing dominance of domestic brands. Analysts note that while the company still sees China as a growing market, pricing pressures and an overcrowded automotive sector pose ongoing risks to BMW's long-term positioning.
It'll likely become even more difficult for BMW and other automotive companies to gain market share in the Chinese market with BYD's latest announcement. The Chinese automaker said it will be offering its advanced "God's Eye" autonomous technology in mass-market EVs like the $9,500 Seagull, while expanding globally with government-based EV initiatives.
TFA Link (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Insightful)
EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore, it's lack of charging infrastructure (possibly also mixed a bit with an unwillingness to make a 30 minute DCFC pit stop during road trips) and/or concerns over long-term battery calendar lifespan. A smaller, but probably still significant factor is that many Americans see their car as an extension of their identity, and EV ownership may not necessarily align with some folks' political leanings.
As far as hybrid pricing goes, back when my partner and I were shopping for his new car, we looked at the pricing for a Prius and noped right out of that. The '23 Bolt EUV ended up being substantially cheaper. I'm sure if road tripping was a concern the Prius would've been a better fit, but we just needed a daily commuter that would be charged at home every night, and for our use case the extra expense and complexity of a hybrid powertrain was just superfluous. Do we regret our decision? Not at all. In fact, a few months later I ended up trading in my '19 Nissan Versa for another Bolt.
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:5, Insightful)
Or is it the lack of $7500 handout where taxpayers helped pay for people's new cars?
Technically, the rebate is your own money. The government is saying "If you want to spend $7,500 of your tax dollars on an EV, you can have it back to do so." You'd think more conservatives would be on board with this, because then you know for damn sure that money isn't going to pay for underwater basket weavers in Venezuela to have sex changes.
It's amazing how big oil has been able to successfully manipulate the narrative and make some people hate the idea that they could have autonomy over how some of their tax money is spent.
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You'd think more conservatives would be on board with this, because then you know for damn sure that money isn't going to pay for underwater basket weavers in Venezuela to have sex changes.
They are lined up to suck Elon's dick while simultaneously shouting about how EVs are woke and anyone who thinks we should drive them is a woke liberal. The one thing they cannot do is "think".
Bullshit (Score:2)
For the right wing the general complaint is they shouldn't have to put money in the pot. The counters of that is that it's basically impossible to be a functional human being without the stuff built from that pot.
So the complaint is as a right-winger that you don't want an EV but you still have to pitch in so somebody else can buy one.
Honestly with regards to cars I kind of agree with them.
Re: Fuel (Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid) (Score:2)
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I think you're overlooking just how inefficient ice vehicles are too.
Nobody but theoretical physicists care about the thermodynamic efficiency of a vehicle. What concerns people are pennies they have to pay per mile, as well as less tangible matters like comfort and convenience.
You pay a lot for gas, and the reality is most ice cars don't have a lifespan much past 150-200k miles without a major engine overhaul.
It wasn't that long ago when cars had only 5 digits on the odometer because lasting to 100,000 miles before being considered junk was a rarity. Getting to 150,000 miles before the engine is worn out, or there's some other major maintenance needed, is pretty good. A quick search of the web tells me
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What concerns people are pennies they have to pay per mile
Then they should be concerned about the taxes they pay to support the MIC which in turn supports the oil industry and makes their ICEVs possible.
ICE doesn't have to equate to fossil fuels. We know how to produce carbon neutral fuels that are a direct replacement for fossil fuels.
And if we do that, then people will have to pay a lot more per mile, eliminating the benefit of the ICEV.
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It's amazing how big oil has been able to successfully manipulate the narrative and make some people hate the idea that they could have autonomy over how some of their tax money is spent.
I'm amazed how "Big EV" has controlled the narrative that ICE equates to fossil fuels when carbon neutral fuels exist.
The problem is not the ICE, the problem is fossil fuels. Bring carbon neutral fuels to market and one of the biggest reasons for owning a BEV evaporates. Not needing to stop at a filling station for fuel must rank highly for buying a BEV but natural gas vehicles are a thing, and apparently quite popular for municipal vehicles like solid waste collection trucks, street sweepers, and common heavy duty pickups. There's a number of websites that offer used Ford F-250 CNGV trucks for sale, with the prior owner being some city or perhaps a corporate fleet vehicle. Maybe not an ideal daily driver but could be a nice work truck or something to tow a boat or camper trailer. CNG is still a fossil fuel but produces half the CO2 of diesel, offers fill up at home and at filing stations equipped with CNG pumps, and as cities move to synthesized alternatives to natural gas a potential for becoming carbon neutral.
We don't need BEVs to have "green" transportation. We can switch the fuel for the ICEVs we already have instead.
Yes, the problem is ICE. More specifically the problem is that ICE is an outdated technology with a 20% energy efficiency that people like you are talking up into a world beating alternative to BEVs who have a 70-90% energy efficiency and that don't care whether the electricity they run on comes from a solar, wind, natgas, nuclear plant or a giant array of dynamo equipped hamster wheels supplemented by a potato battery array to account for bathroom breaks and feeding times. Now please list all the alternati
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EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore..
Uh, if you really believe cost isn’t the issue with an average price being damn near $50K for a car, do the quick math on what percentage of society YOU think can afford a $700+ car payment for the better part of a decade.
And that’s before you add the monthly auto insurance cost to insure THE most overpriced shitboxes ever made in the history of car making. Meaning it might last long enough for you to pay off the loan before it breaks or becomes fashionably obsolete.
Yes. Price still matters. L
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EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
The average new car transaction price in the USA is approximately $49.7k. Cost really isn't the issue anymore..
Uh, if you really believe cost isn’t the issue with an average price being damn near $50K for a car, do the quick math on what percentage of society YOU think can afford a $700+ car payment for the better part of a decade.
If they can't afford a Model 3 at ~$43k, then they also can't afford most new cars with gasoline engines, so those folks likely don't affect new car sales all that much.
And when they buy a used car, the probability of them getting an EV is likely to be roughly proportional to the percentage of new car buyers who bought an EV three to five years earlier, because that's what is going to be available on the used car market. That, in turn, makes them pretty much completely irrelevant to the discussion, period,
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That is the problem with the average. Add the prices of a Dacia and a Ferrari, divide by two and the result will look like everyone is driving a Porsche.
Also, most people don't buy new cars anyway.
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My car is 18 years old. It was paid off 14 years ago.
Continuing to drive my car is cheaper than any EV on the market, or any EV that WILL be on the market in my lifetime.
Mine is 25 years old and has 364k miles. For my kids I have 3 others, ranging from 13 to 22 years old. All run fine. Keeping them running as long as possible has got to be more energy efficient than scrapping them and manufacturing new cars. It certainly is easier on my wallet
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Insightful)
This issue is explicitly about politics. The CEO said that himself. And it should be no surprise, uncertainty is one of those things which comes along with corruption and holds back economic development in invisible but very significant ways. We've been throwing away legal precedent right and left, and now we're throwing away legislative precedent, and this is one of the consequences.
I'll quote IvÃn Duque here:
How can you invest in a country where your profits depend on the mood of the president?
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How can you invest in a country where your profits depend on the mood of the president?
I believe it would be more appropriate to use "voters" than "president". Trump didn't just decide to run for POTUS and got the job because he wanted it more than anyone else. He got the job because he convinced a plurality of eligible voters to show up and vote for him. Since there is a large overlap on eligible voters and people willing and able to purchase cars it would be best for automakers to offer vehicles that are attractive to those that are in that overlap of the Venn diagram.
What I'm seeing is
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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That's the point of making it $50k. So you have to lease it and get into a cycle of endless debt. Ownership is not for the masses and is bad for profits. If I sell you a car you might come back in 3 years or 10 years for a new one. If I lease you a car, then you will come back because you have no choice. Can't afford the payment to buy, look at these nice lease deals, just a few grand down upfront and this low payment for 36 months, then you have no equity and can do it all over again.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:1)
Yeah...but even toyota isn't immune to cheaping out with hybrids. For a while they stopped putting 6 cyl engines in their hybrid powertrains and you'd end up with a 3800 lb SUV with a turbocharged 4 cylinder at best. Fine for most city driving I guess, but the numbers just didn't add up for being able to overtake at highway speeds if there's even an average grade. Highways where I drive happen to be full of those...so I just ended up getting a gas-only 6 cylinder.
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:4, Informative)
EVs with adequate range are still too expensive
In the US. Here is a nice review of Chinese cars: https://www.motortrend.com/rev... [motortrend.com]
As a result, China is now at more than 50% of new car sales being EVs. Their government set a goal of 50% sales by 2030, but it has already been achieved.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
I wonder how China's government's efforts compare with Norway's, who, iinm, are the real trail blazers when it comes to EVs.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:3)
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Apples and oranges. The Norwegian government has had a very successful program focused on consumption, while China has had a very successful program focused on production, first and foremost.
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Yes. And I’m pretty sure they saw this as a way to eventually win in the automative space over the US and, to a lesser extent, European and Japanese OEMs, by leveraging the fact that Chinese consumers aren’t culturally invested in ICE the way that so many in the West are, and thus they could move to a more modern tech while western countries got mired in culture wars.
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Well, I didn't buy an electric vehicle not because of the price, I purchase things that I like sometimes regardless of the price but because I want or need the thing. To me an EV is the opposite of freedom, it is a ball and a chain that would force me to plan my life around charging a vehicle, when in my life a vehicle is only a means of transportation for some of my cars and a way to enjoy myself while driving some of others. Basically an EV doesn't work for me on any level, either for transportation or
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:3)
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As I keep saying, what is the point of having a vehicle with better acceleration if you know you are wrecking it every time you accelerate hard?
The people who think that not ever accelerating hard will prolong your battery life are stupid. We've talked about lithium islanding quite a bit on this site. Look it up.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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We talked about it here, this is not a reputable source but there were links.
Unfortunately I cannot find the story with slashdot search (which was always worthless) or google search (which is increasingly useless) even using site:.
Mine this explanation for keywords: Researchers built a transparent lithium cell and found that lithium migrates through electrolyte in the direction of current flow. Fast charging causes islanding. High current flow in the discharge direction actually reattaches the lithium to th
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
if you want maximum battery life you should slow charge as much as possible
So then you being up another thing that makes me uncomfortable. I can't simply charge my car quickly and get it over with, it has to be sitting partly charged in my driveway for long periods of time or I will wreck it. There just seems to be many pitfalls that leave the owner at the mercy of a battery replacement. I use it how I use it and I don't want to have to be constantly worried about whether I did something to reduce the range. I don't want to the range to fall at all.
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You CAN simply charge your car quickly and get it over with, but if you do it ALL THE TIME then it will reduce your battery life. That IS a real problem, and one which we hope will be solved with solid state batteries.
Gasoline cars' range falls over time until the engine eventually has to be rebuilt to get it back. Fuel injectors and cylinder rings are consumable items. They start with more range, so it doesn't impact us as much.
Your gasoline car is benefiting from massive subsidies. If it were priced fairl
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I had an ICE engine fail on me once because I ran it a long time with almost no oil and it cost me $500 CDN to r
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Yes, yes they keep talking about solid state batteries, but will they be in an affordable vehicle and will there be enough fast chargers around everywhere to take full advantage of the charging speed in my lifetime?
The former, sure. The latter, not if the anti-science buffoons have their way.
I had an ICE engine fail on me once because I ran it a long time with almost no oil and it cost me $500 CDN to replace it with a comparable used engine.
I assume you did the swap yourself, at that cost. Most people cannot.
EVs just seem way, way more inconvenient to me.
The ICE is more convenient than the EV if you ignore all of the impact from it which is affecting you.
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I want a plugin hybrid. My usage fits well with them, and most days, I'd never get past the battery. But those days I take cross country trips (a few times a year) I won't need to worry about my route and where to take 20-minute breaks.
Sadly, I bought a new BMW in 2021, and they didn't have a good plugin-hybrid X5M, so it's going to be at least until 2030 until I consider it.
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EVs with adequate range are still too expensive, consequently what is affordable is not suitable as the only car for most people.
Statistics reflect that, most BEV owners have another vehicle that is an ICEV or PHEV.
However, plug-in and regular hybrids that Toyota mastered can get around limited EV mileage and lengthy charging times with on-board ICE. While they are slightly more expensive than ICE-only cars, they are still relatively affordable.
That makes me think that the payback time on the added cost over an ICEV is shorter than for a BEV. A BEV may have all miles as electric but a PHEV has most driving as elecrric since most driving is daily commutes and therefore within the range of all electric driving. The ICE in a PHEV is used on long trips, cold weather, power outages or forgetfulness that leaves the driver with an incomplete charge, or whatever. Wear
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What does it mean for PHEVs to emit 350% more pollution than some laboratory model? All that tells me is people suck at making models. How does a PHEV compare to BEVs and ICEVs on CO2 emissions in the real world? That's what people should be concerned about, not that someone's model on performance was a bad predictor for real world results.
That headline is nearly the definition of "click bait".
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Long range EVs have reached price parity with fossil fuel cars now. Sometimes they are even cheaper with available discounts.
MG are a good example to use. Long range cars that are cheaper than other brand's petrol models, and better built.
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
Re: Toyota was right to go with hybrid (Score:2)
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...death cultist.
Did you mean to sign it this way instead of addressing? Because it is environmentalists that keep predicting extinction every few years, all the way starting in 70s.
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For every gas-guzzler that you pledge to buy, I pledge not to buy ten. Choke on those emissions, death cultist.
Major racing series are switching to e-fuels now, that is where development is headed and it will trickle down to road cars in time. Yes, for most people for whom a car is just another appliance BEVs are fine, but zero emissions ICE cars are the future for enthusiasts.
https://global.honda/en/tech/m... [global.honda]
No reason we can't have both - engaging cars and low emissions. BMW knows this. So does Porsche.
https://www.topspeed.com/porsc... [topspeed.com]
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It's Trump (Score:5, Informative)
I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning. It's clear from his $55 billion dollar pay package, the 5-year-old drivetrain on Teslas and The fact that without government subsidies he only makes $500 per car that he doesn't intend for the company to live all that much longer. He's going to get what he can out of it but I wonder what if anything are his plans after that.
Assuming we ever have another election (with how much voter suppression we had last cycle I have doubts) then he's going to lose his SpaceX contracts. The military considers him a national security risk after the stunt he pulled in Ukraine. He's always going to be rich of course because we don't put guys like him in the poor house.
I suspect his plan is to try and get into the treasury and start using a cryptocurrency that he personally controls for government payments thereby effectively making him our entire banking system, kind of like how China has that everything app. That's what he's been talking about with X for some time.
It remains to be seen if we're dumb enough to let him do it.
Re: It's Trump (Score:1)
Hey guy...whacky conspiracy theories about billionaires stealing your lunch money was *our* thing. I'll trade y'all back the antivax for it.
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I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning. It's clear from his $55 billion dollar pay package, the 5-year-old drivetrain on Teslas and The fact that without government subsidies he only makes $500 per car that he doesn't intend for the company to live all that much longer.
People still buy the Toyota Camry, and that's basically been the same car for damn near close to two decades. Swap out the cheese grater front grille and the whale-tail ass with their retro equivalents and you've got a car straight out of the early 2000s. If Toyota can do it successfully, Tesla can continue to milk their current lineup for many years to come. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with Tesla's 5-year-old powertrain; it still smokes most of the ICE vehicles on the road.
Musk's bigger proble
Wow, whoever posted this used in AI (Score:4, Funny)
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is for all the common enemy to get rid of. He's a fraud and he manipulated the election with the help of AI and gerrymandering maps preventing 37 millions democrat voters to vote.
Stopped reading at "gerrymandering " which has no effect on a Presidential election
Dude you do not know of what you speak (Score:2)
Musk's political antics are because his businesses are falling apart and he knows it. He's always relied on government programs for everything except for that one golden parachute he got from PayPal during the
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The Camry from today is a far cry from a Camry 20 years ago. There's no comparison in terms of safety, performance, build quality and features.
I'll give you that by going hybrid-only for the 2025 model year, Toyota has finally made some much needed changes to the car. But prior to that, they got away with selling a car with relatively poor performance for its class (unless you opted for the larger engine) for decades, and it still sold well. As you said though, those changes came with a much higher price tag.
By comparison, I've test driven a Model 3 and nothing about the car feels dated. Plus, when you stomp on it, there's no question about it
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Pretty much every electric car has excess power because otherwise the recuperation wouldn't be very effective.
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Absolutely none of that is true. You can get EVs with only moderate acceleration — this is true of every single EV supermini on the market with the exception of the Alpine a290, and even that’s not that fast (just under 7 secs). And those EVs all have good regen, enough to enable one-pedal driving.
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Even Dacia Spring has excellent acceleration - up to a point.
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I do wonder what Elon Musk is planning.
A few things about Elon: (1) he gets bored easily; (2) his behavior is at odds with Tesla customers/investors; (3) he is currently getting a taste of ultimate power-- operating within an unchecked executive branch of the post powerful country on Earth.
Remember what Elon said to advertisers who threatened to boycott X? "Go fuck yourself." That's what we're dealing with here.
I suspect Elon is growing bored of Tesla and wants to swap-out his shares for something potentially MUCH bigger-- leaving everyone else
What about the old i3 with Range Extender...? (Score:2)
Why not something like the i3 with the range extender? Something like that, I know people who swear by those because they are arguably the best of both worlds, especially here in the US where the power grid isn't really reliable in places.
Re: What about the old i3 with Range Extender...? (Score:2)
BMW makes a lot of motorcycle engines, so I guess they are still equipped to build hybrid drivetrains like that of the i3.
With battery density increasing, it could be possible to have that small displacement engine there idle most of the time just in case 100 or 200 miles of ev range are not enough.
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yes, a range extender is definitely better than a hybrid but still a compromise
A "range extender" is a type of hybrid and so it doesn't follow to claim it better than a hybrid. It would make sense to call a range extender a superior form of PHEV but that depends on the application. If the PHEV is used for towing then some kind of mechanical link from ICE to the wheels would be quite helpful in vehicle longevity and performance. If the ICE in the PHEV is as much for cabin heat on long cold drives as it is for backup in case there's busted EV chargers at the next stop then a range ex
Risky move (Score:3)
Except there is no guarantee Trump will allow Germany to beach its lifeboat here. Trump is threatening 25% tariffs on EU auto imports. Does BMW's announcement mean they know something we don't?
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The oil price can't really go down without also adding more subsidies to fracking. Current levels of fracking in USA depends on the current high oil prices.
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Trump is threatening 25% tariffs on EU auto imports. Does BMW's announcement mean they know something we don't?
BMW manufacture in the USA. Not just manufacture in the USA, their single largest plant is in the USA. They are unaffected by tariffs. In fact some 70% of the BMWs manufactured in the USA are currently exported.
BMW just can't code (Score:2)
I own a BMW i3. I bought it new in late 2016. Since then I have driven or rented 6 other modern BMWs.
BMW should be legally restricted from doing anything with an electronic circuit involved.
By comparison, Tesla, BYD and Nio are substantially better. And if BYD is in business and they appear financially s
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BMW should be legally restricted from doing anything with an electronic circuit involved.
The best part about recent BMWs is how much "coding" you, the owner can do. Thousands of parameters affecting pretty much every element of the vehicle, it's actually pretty mind blowing. From lighting, HVAC and entertainment to braking, steering and stability control there is stuff you can tune in almost every ECU. At your own risk of course.
https://www.bimmergeeks.net/pr... [bimmergeeks.net]
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The truth is that only car company with a decent UX department for their infotainment is Tesla.
Up to the point that I consider Tesla an IT company that installs it's software on car-shaped hardware.
And the trend of moving everything to a touch screen does not work for cars, even with good UI/UX design.
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Dysfunctional country (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm sure a lot of multinationals are looking at the US as a lost cause right now. How can you do business in a country that is being run with the sole purpose of exacting petty retribution on as many people as possible.
Re: Dysfunctional country (Score:3)
EVs aren't about being green for most (Score:3)
All this focus on EVs and the environment misses the point. I didn't buy 2 EVs to save the planet. I bought them because EVs are far cheaper to run than ICEs, and they're far more reliable. There are no $250 oil changes every 3 months or annual "service intervals" at $2K a pop. It's also significantly cheaper to fill an EV than an ICE. Our main EV (Model X) used $1700 in electricity last year with zero scheduled maintenance to cover 28K miles. That's $0.06/mile. The SUV we had before that cost $110 to fill and got 18 miles to the gallon if you took it easy. It also required an annual recommended service at Lexus that was never less than $1500. So the Tesla cost $1700 to cover 28,000 miles, the Lexus cost $6000 in fuel plus $1000 in oil changes, and a $1500 annual service. So to drive the same distance in comparable cars, the EV cost $1700 while the ICE cost $8500, so for us, ICEs were 5x more expensive to drive. There's absolutely no way I will ever go back to an ICE for a daily driver, and arguments against EVs are always from people who don't have one. Now, they're not a good fit for everybody. Regardless of what others claim, you really need an EV charger at home if you drive more than 20 miles a day. If you take regular road trips beyond 150 miles each way, you're going to find stopping to charge for 20 minutes isn't fun regardless of what toys are available on the touch screen. So there are caveats, but for us, it's been a significantly better experience than we had with 2 Lexus ICEs.
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Re: EVs aren't about being green for most (Score:2)
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I bought them because EVs are far cheaper to run than ICEs, and they're far more reliable. There are no $250 oil changes every 3 months or annual "service intervals" at $2K a pop.
Nobody in their right mind spends $250 on an oil change and $2k on an annual service. At those prices no wonder you think ICE's are expensive
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What an admission by BMW (Score:2)
With this, they’re effectively saying they’re caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. On one side, Trump’s America which he’s committed to ICE (so this announcement makes sense) and tariffs on steel and quite possibly EU autos in the future (so this announcement makes less sense). OTOH, there’s China, which was a growth driver for them, but in which they’re losing ground and profitability due to Chinese OEMs’ offerings and a market focused on EVs. And then t
It's not the cost or the charging, it's the car. (Score:2)
Re:It's not the cost or the charging, it's the car (Score:4, Insightful)
After renting a BMW a couple of weeks ago, I'll never own a gas car. Sure, the acceleration is terrible. But it's like learning to drive all over again. It's difficult to know how fast one is driving as there's inconsistent engine sound. The jerky acceleration as the gears shift was nerve racking. The car itself was noisy, far too much road and engine noise fo ra car this expensive. Refuelling at the office was a PIA, they didn't have a gas station, so I had to go to a gas station, wait in line, then stand in the freezing cold holding a smelly gas pump to refill the tank, rather than just waking up to a full charge in the morning. THe damn thing shut off at a traffic light when I opened the door becuase I thought it was not closed tightly and only knew it when the light changed to green and woudln't go. And hte field of view was just awful, all I could see was hood.
Granted, some of these things are just related to the learning curve and my co-workers did tell me 'you get used to it." But I didn't see how ANY of them contributed to an improved experience over my Ioniq 5. And many contributed to unsafe driving.