Android, Epic, and What's Really Behind Google's 'Existential' Threat to F-Droid (thenewstack.io) 53
Starting in September, even Android developers not in Google's Play Store will still be required to register with Google to distribute their apps in Brazil, Singapore, Indonesia, and Thailand, with Google continuing "to roll out these requirements globally" four months later. Even developers distributing Android apps on the web for sideloading will be required to register, pay Google a $25 fee, and provide a government ID.
But there's a new theory on what's secretly been motivating Google from an unnamed source in the "Keep Android Open" movement, writes long-time Slashdot reader destinyland: "You can't separate this really from their ongoing interactions with Epic and the settlement that they came to," they argue. Twelve days ago Epic Games and Google announced a new proposal for settling their long-running dispute over the legality of alternative app stores on Android phones. (Rather than agreeing to let third-party app stores into their Play Store, Google wants them to continue being sideloaded, promising in a blog post last week that they'll even offer a "more streamlined" and "simplified" sideloading alternative for rival app stores. "This Registered App Store program will begin outside of the US first, and we intend to bring it to the US as well, subject to court approval.")
So "developer verification" could be Google's fallback plan if U.S. courts fail to approve this. "If the Google Play Store has to allow any third-party repository app store, Google essentially has given up all control of the apps. But if they're able to claw back that control by requiring that all developers, no matter how they distribute their apps, have to register with Google — have to agree to their Terms & Conditions, pay them money, provide identification — then they have a large degree of indirect control over any app that can be developed for the entire platform."
But that plan threatens millions of people using the alternative F/OSS app distributor F-Droid, since Google also wants to have only one signature attached to Android apps. Marc Prud'hommeaux, a member of F-Droid's board of directors, says that "all of a sudden breaks all those versions of the application distributed through F-Droid or any other app store!"
Prud'hommeaux says they've told Google's Android team "You know perfectly well that you're killing F-Droid!" creating an "existential" threat to an app distributor "that has existed happily for over 10 years." But good things started happening when he created the website Keep Android Open: There's now a "huge backlog" of signers for an Open Letter that already includes EFF, the Software Freedom Conservancy, and the Free Software Foundation. He believes Android's existing Play Protect security "is completely sufficient to handle the particular scenarios they claim that developer verification is meant to address"...
The Keep Android Open site urges developers not to sign up for Android's early access program when it launches next week. (Instead, they're asking developers to respond to invites with an email about their concerns — and to spread the word to other developers and organizations in forums and social media posts.) There's also a petition at Change.org currently signed by 64,000 developers — adding 20,000 new signatures in the last 10 days. And "If you have an Android device, try installing F-Droid!" he adds. Google tracks how many people install these alternative app repositories, and a larger user base means greater consequences from any Android policy changes.
Plus, installing F-Droid "might be refreshing!" Prud'hommeaux says. "You don't see all the advertisements and promotions and scam and crapware stuff that you see in the commercial app stores!"
But there's a new theory on what's secretly been motivating Google from an unnamed source in the "Keep Android Open" movement, writes long-time Slashdot reader destinyland: "You can't separate this really from their ongoing interactions with Epic and the settlement that they came to," they argue. Twelve days ago Epic Games and Google announced a new proposal for settling their long-running dispute over the legality of alternative app stores on Android phones. (Rather than agreeing to let third-party app stores into their Play Store, Google wants them to continue being sideloaded, promising in a blog post last week that they'll even offer a "more streamlined" and "simplified" sideloading alternative for rival app stores. "This Registered App Store program will begin outside of the US first, and we intend to bring it to the US as well, subject to court approval.")
So "developer verification" could be Google's fallback plan if U.S. courts fail to approve this. "If the Google Play Store has to allow any third-party repository app store, Google essentially has given up all control of the apps. But if they're able to claw back that control by requiring that all developers, no matter how they distribute their apps, have to register with Google — have to agree to their Terms & Conditions, pay them money, provide identification — then they have a large degree of indirect control over any app that can be developed for the entire platform."
But that plan threatens millions of people using the alternative F/OSS app distributor F-Droid, since Google also wants to have only one signature attached to Android apps. Marc Prud'hommeaux, a member of F-Droid's board of directors, says that "all of a sudden breaks all those versions of the application distributed through F-Droid or any other app store!"
Prud'hommeaux says they've told Google's Android team "You know perfectly well that you're killing F-Droid!" creating an "existential" threat to an app distributor "that has existed happily for over 10 years." But good things started happening when he created the website Keep Android Open: There's now a "huge backlog" of signers for an Open Letter that already includes EFF, the Software Freedom Conservancy, and the Free Software Foundation. He believes Android's existing Play Protect security "is completely sufficient to handle the particular scenarios they claim that developer verification is meant to address"...
The Keep Android Open site urges developers not to sign up for Android's early access program when it launches next week. (Instead, they're asking developers to respond to invites with an email about their concerns — and to spread the word to other developers and organizations in forums and social media posts.) There's also a petition at Change.org currently signed by 64,000 developers — adding 20,000 new signatures in the last 10 days. And "If you have an Android device, try installing F-Droid!" he adds. Google tracks how many people install these alternative app repositories, and a larger user base means greater consequences from any Android policy changes.
Plus, installing F-Droid "might be refreshing!" Prud'hommeaux says. "You don't see all the advertisements and promotions and scam and crapware stuff that you see in the commercial app stores!"
Ads (Score:5, Insightful)
I always go to f-droid first because Google Play apps generally have ads.
Re:Ads (Score:4, Insightful)
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I specifically buy easy-to-flash android phones so I can install LineageOS on it and F-droid. I would not touch the play store with a 3.3 meter pole.
I've never owned an android phone that wasn't flashed with a custom rom but each time it is hell even when purchasing explicitly for this purpose and the process is always changing. The LineageOS instructions in my experience are often flat wrong or missing critical steps so you have to do even more esoteric bullshit to recover from EDL. Each time things get worse.
Then there is always a rug pull support for an android version evaporates almost instantly and you have to constantly keep rolling the dice on
Re:Ads (Score:5, Interesting)
https://battlepenguin.com/tech... [battlepenguin.com]
https://battlepenguin.com/tech... [battlepenguin.com]
https://battlepenguin.com/tech... [battlepenguin.com]
I slowly moved from just Cyanogen/Lineage+Gapps to Lineage+microG (fake GApps stubs) to a phone with pure LineageOS with no microG or Gapps. If you really need Google maps, they work in the web interface. You just have to click all those annoying "Open in App" popups.
A lot of people are just addicted to shit they don't really need. Social networking. Shitty banking apps (One of my banks requires Gapps but the other doesn't, and that's what I use twice a year when I need to scan checks).
Purism ended up being a totally shitty company. It took years to get my refund and I would never buy any of their devices. I still have an old PinePhone I should get back out and an old Sony XA2 that I should try to get PostmarketOS working on. We really do need good Linux alternative phones.
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Yep i was always using de-googled android and would always make sure my phones were well supported.
Then phones got really important and suddenly i need to interact with my insurance company through an app and i need to install an app to unlock the door to my airbnb at 1am and I have to explain to the owner that no, i only run free/open source software on my phone and that while i can install the doorknob app it does not run due to incompatibilities in the..........
Once Apple changed their privacy features e
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This ever-escalating difficulty of rooting is why I think Android isn't worth saving as a general-purpose OS. This isn't a fight free software can win or should expend too much effort on. Google's going to continue tightening their coils as they always have until the only practical option is to replace mainstream Android with something different to the point of major incompatibility if you don't want a walled-garden toy OS, so I say we should get out ahead of them with something GNU/Linux-based.
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what really stunned me was the apps I found on f-droid were generally so much *better* than the play stuff they replaced. Especially the niche apps that don't have huge user-bases... Play has become an absolute wasteland for sloppy development.
Re:Ads (Score:4, Interesting)
They are usually a lot better IME but only in cases where what i'm looking for actually exists in the f-droid store at all which is often not the case.
Often times even if there is an alternative on f-droid it's like "incompatible because last updated 12 years ago"
Still on the play store I end up uninstalling most apps on first open because the very first thing they do when you open the app is display a full screen ad.
Google treats small developers like crap (Score:5, Informative)
For years Google has let big corps break the Developer Distribution Agreement by providing bogus Support contact details such as unmanned email addresses such as noreply@microsoft.com and support@apple.com in breached of the DDA.
Re:Google treats everyone like crap (Score:2)
it's not just small developers, Google also rips off the rest of us. The owners of google manipulate search results, oercharge for advertising, underpay adsense content creators and they manipulate markets and governments, this is exactly what classism, corruption and evil looks like
the people running google and all these other transnational corporations are criminals
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Yeah, Google asking for umpteen levels of identification and "know your customer" even though you intend to release your app for free, and do not intend making any money through the app store - is incredibly annoying, if not destructive. I've also got to say, the need to have a phone number for support (not your own phone - it tells you not to do that) is also a barrier to entry. What if I want to give my app away for free, and I either have support through other avenues, or perhaps I just don't want to sup
Some recommended F-Droid apps (Score:5, Interesting)
NewPipe (a super awesome YouTube player w/o ads)
DuckDuckGo mobile browser (I like how easy it is to blow away cookies)
TiefPrompt (a teleprompter)
NewPipe (Score:1)
Or the better fork Tubular.
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And some more:
Voice - really nice audiobook player,
AntennaPod - podcast manager / player,
Conversations - XMPP/jabber client for Android,
Automation - Actions based on triggers.
Re:Some recommended F-Droid apps (Score:5, Informative)
Don't forget Fennec F-Droid, which is a clean build if Firefox mobile. With uBlock Origin and Privacy Badger browsing is a lot safer than with any chrome based browser.
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Breezy Weather is the best weather app I found, and it's only on F-Droid and Obtainium.
They generally pull weather info from the same place the commercial weather aggregators pull from and resell for monies and ads, the taxpayer funded government weather stations.
But Breezy Weather gives way more information and customizability than the ad-infested options you see on Google Play, and it looks nice too.
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The latest one I was impressed by is Whisper+ .. an insanely accurate full text voice recognition IME using whisper models not available on play store.
The Megacorps don't learn, do they? (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the big reasons I went with Android and not Apple when the mobile software craze started was that Apple was "We own you and the entire pipeline you use to bring software to end-users" and Google was "We don't care as long as you use our toolkits and services - which are totally FOSS btw."
This new totally-not-the-old-Google registration requirement is a hard turn-off for peer-group opinion leaders like myself. There are still FOSS Android alternatives, yes, so anybody doing Android development isn't suddenly entirely out in the cold, but this is a serious damper for my Google enthusiasm and I'm pretty sure others are thinking the same.
This is why I stuck with Web btw., even though Android Studio, Kotlin and Co. were very enticing. You never know when some corp. is going to pull out the rug from under you. That's why FOSS _and_ cross-platform (i.e. Web) is the only way I roll. Google can go all M1cros0ft and I'd barely miss a beat with any of my software projects.
Maybe this is the beginning of the end for Google? Couldn't say but it would be a shame. Of all Megacorps they were my favorite.
Re: The Megacorps don't learn, do they? (Score:2)
PWAs are "under attack in China" with Huawei dropping support in their browser. Others seem to be OK for now (eg xiaomi/redmi), but it seems inevitable that they will all try to develop their own walled gardens ala Apple eventually. Even the decent unlocked phones seem to be difficult to find these days (eg OnePlus) or are losing their ability to be unlocked.
It's all going to cr*p.
Banned PWAs? Where's the problem? (Score:2)
What APIs and functions exactly are being banned? And even if, migrating a PWA to something a little more old-school is trivial. Back in the day we even did async FEBE before XHTTPRequest even existed. Given, (re)loading zero-width frames to transfer data back and forth is quite steam-age Ghetto-style by todays standards, but the upside is it also works in browsers from 1998. 8-)
None of Google's damn business (Score:4, Informative)
Google tracks how many people install these alternative app repositories
If true, this is totally creepy. It means they're already watching everything you sidelload.
I don't have any Google apps installed (I use LineageOS for microG [microg.org]), but it's amazing how much spying their apps do.
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If true, this is totally creepy. It means they're already watching everything you sidelload.
It's absolutely true by default, because Play Protect is on by default and it does this. I don't know if any other mechanisms do the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was part of the Play Store update check.
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Even with Play Protect off the playstore wants to upgrade F-Droid apps (and can't because of different signatures). If they want, they can store what apps you're using.
But have a look at what rights other apps are requesting. Most can (and do) read your app list, and you bet that many of the ad frameworks upload it, if for statistics, marketing, or because the list may be an unique fingerprint for your phone.
People always forget about basic things (Score:1)
People want Android to be free, but then, those who profit off of Android should somehow not have to pay in some way, shape, or form? A device maker like Samsung, is in the position where it's less expensive to just include the Google suite of apps than to play the game of releasing Android without the Google apps, but without the apps, then shouldn't Google get SOMETHING for the work that goes into new versions of Android? It's not realistic to expect phones to come as just an electronic device and for
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I'd be so fucking happy if google exited android development. Chrome too, come to think of it. Can't happen soon enough.
> It's not realistic to expect phones to come as just an electronic device and for the public to treat it like Linux and install their own OS on it
this is exactly what I want.
Re:People always forget about basic things (Score:4, Insightful)
People want Android to be free, but then, those who profit off of Android should somehow not have to pay in some way, shape, or form?
While many people are making money off open source you can't force people to pay you to use it.
A device maker like Samsung, is in the position where it's less expensive to just include the Google suite of apps than to play the game of releasing Android without the Google apps, but without the apps, then shouldn't Google get SOMETHING for the work that goes into new versions of Android?
Google can get SOMETHING by charging vendors for the honor of having Google play malware preinstalled. From what I remember they were already forced to do this in Europe. They know full well fees ultimately just erode market share as it becomes cheaper for vendors to source replacements.
It's not realistic to expect phones to come as just an electronic device and for the public to treat it like Linux and install their own OS on it, configure it, adjust settings, install this and that application for what they want, and then figure out why things don't work due to some manufacturing defect.
What makes it unrealistic? Why can I install Linux on any PC with a huge range of hardware and it just works yet this is somehow unrealistic for mobile devices? Android kernels are just Linux.
What seems unrealistic to me is this business of cooking roms specific to each and every device only to have vendors quickly walk away leaving users with no ability to upgrade or replace operating system without going thru absurd hoops.
Re:People always forget about basic things (Score:4, Informative)
Nowadays, however, is that even a reasonable concern? Are mobile comms still so fragile that some rogue app could bring down an entire network?
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"What makes it unrealistic? Why can I install Linux on any PC with a huge range of hardware and it just works yet this is somehow unrealistic for mobile devices? Android kernels are just Linux."
The answer is that the SoC hardware ecosystem is a bespoke shitshow. It is full of short-lived, one-off chips. No SoC lasts long enough to get standardized.
When I was at Intel, we had customers begging for x86 SoCs just because the ecosystem was more mature, even if it was otherwise terrible.
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You can't even run LInux on most Apple Silicon SoCs.
It's kind of amazing how many Android devices actually have custom ROMs.
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People want Android to be free, but then, those who profit off of Android should somehow not have to pay in some way, shape, or form?
So then, let Samsung either pay $X per install like they do on their laptops for Windows, or let Samsung fork AOSP.
then shouldn't Google get SOMETHING for the work that goes into new versions of Android?
They do - they get to control the ad infrastructure and the data that comes from the full Google suite, from hardware vendors like Samsung and Motorola and Oppo. If Google doesn't like it, they can fork AOSP and make PlayOS, and deal with the fallout that comes from pissing off their hardware vendors AND regulators.
It's not realistic to expect phones to come as just an electronic device and for the public to treat it like Linux and install their own OS on it, configure it, adjust settings, install this and that application for what they want, and then figure out why things don't work due to some manufacturing defect.
And why is that? Perhaps I'll grant the awkward wording where "and then
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Well I want at least a free phone and $50 per hour for the ads they force on me.
I no longer use my Samsung phone for the Internet - the experience is horrendous. If I don't have access to a Linux/BSD machine, I don't use the internet. I am not going to upgrade my phone till it breaks. Probably then I will use a dumb phone.
Please EU, lets have an EUtube!
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From a user point of view, that question is irrelevant, and IMHO it's even hard to have an opinion about.
I don't care who pays what (even if it's me), as long as:
1. The software I run is maintainable. (so in practice, that's nearly equivalent to "must be Open Source")
2. Nobody who isn't me, has any say whatsoever about what I'm allowed to run on my computer. (so in practice, t
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then shouldn't Google get SOMETHING for the work that goes into new versions of Android?
Who cares if it's "fair"? Corporations don't care about fair.. at least Google dgaf.
Seriously go fuck yourself bootlicker.
Interesting (Score:2)
So they're willing to freely admit that third-party app stores are typically cesspools of spam and malware.
Am I the only one with F-Droid problems? (Score:3)
I've had this same problem with F-Droid basically every time I've tried to use it. Install it, it works fine, apps install fine. Updates maybe work the first time or two. After that it downloads updates successfully but then they always say they are corrupt. I've had this happen on multiple Android versions, both on modded and non-modded phones, and I can't understand why.
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I use F-Droid on multiple phone and tablet since 2 or more years without anyproblem
Never had a corrupt or any other unwanted thing on it.
I use it on multiple samsung phones, motorola and Ulefone.
My principal calculator is only available on f-droid (graph 89)
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That is very odd. I've used F-Droid for at least six years. Now running F-Droid on three devices currently and have not seen that problem on any of my devices so far.
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I've used fdroid on my tablets and phones for years and have never seen this problem.
Is there any particular app that is affected this way?
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You probably don't want to go through the process of uninstalling an applet then seeing if f-droid works, for every applet you have.
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What makes it sound like a memory leak?
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LineageOS and others ? (Score:3)
I use lineageOS on my phone (Motorola Ace One) and none of the Google App. everything is from F-Droid.
I'm very happy with it, the battery last multiple days since I don't have any bloatware on the phone.
I was a Samsung Ultra User, I have the S22 Ultra (512), S23 Ultra (512) and S24 Ultra (1t).
The moto camera aren't has good then the Ultra Camera, but they are enough good.
Nobody follow, me I don't have silly advertizing popup on my phone.
FY Google.
I just hope that the new policy doesn't affect OpenSource Android like LineageOS!
Slowly restricting who can be a developer (Score:4, Insightful)
Just another screw in the slow eventual requirement to beg the government to be a developer. This whole wild west of people using free speech to write their own applications to represent their own interests or bypass monetized-locked-down functionality by writing their own just couldn't last for long.
First it was just to sell stuff "for tax reasons". Then the free apps got the same rules, now side-loading is getting the same rules.... Eventually I expect to be in breach of some law just by having a compiler and the skills to use it.
How DARE I right....
No mention of GrapheneOS (Score:5, Interesting)
It's worth noting this squeeze from Google only applies to Android if you have Google Play Services installed. With absolute rubbish like this coming from Google, secure systems like GrapheneOS are going to be the only way forward, as I see it. GrapheneOS implements secure, isolated sandboxes for Apps and App Stores to run in.
Unless I'm mistaken this allows you to run a normal Google Play app in one sandbox where it meets all of Google's silly requirements, and then F-Droid apps in another sandbox that is completely free of Google Play.
GrapheneOS is a bit of a hassle, which is why I have been putting it off. But now that Motorola is officially supporting GrapheneOS on some of their new phones, and with Google's corrupted desire to tax everything, I will soon have to bite the bullet and get GrapheneOS going.
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Do you know if running a 3rd party OS like Graphene or Lineage precludes you from running apps that use DRM, like Hulu or Netflix? I've been toying with the idea of converting my NVidia shield, but I don't want to hobble its usefullness as a settop box in the family room.
Re: No mention of GrapheneOS (Score:2)
No, most of them work nicely as far as I remember. (I don't have Netflix anymore so I can't check - but it used to work.)
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I have used Amazon Prime Video on my LineageOS for microG phone.
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If you can't partition on the device itself, you could just have two shields, one for Google-blessed DRM content, and one for a fully non-Google experience.
Very aggressive (Score:3, Interesting)
From what I am reading, they are planning to push this via play protect update - this can't be blocked at device level, and good luck persuading your carrier to firewall it for you (and what happens in roaming?). In short, installing 3rd party apps will be blocked REMOTELY by google at the given deadline.
That is simply unacceptable.
The Play Protect problem (Score:1)
This does not screw GrapheneOS users too much *for now*, because GrapheneOS will not require you to install the Play Store — you can install Obtainium or F-Droid, and get many apps this way — and GrapheneOS is also very unlikely to include in its Android fork the code that forces the system to check that apps came signed by Google. Therefore, GrapheneOS users who don't install the Play Store will not see any impact due to OSS and privacy-minded developers ceasing to publish on the Play Store.
Bu
Google makes the iPhone, better (Score:3)
If Android OS becomes a walled-garden, Google looses their 2nd-biggest advantage. For me, the loss of side-loading means Apple iOS becomes a better product, because it protects privacy.
Google forced me to use Fdroid (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a public transport app called Öffi [google.com] which I consider essential when in Germany. It is free, does not gather data on its users and covers the entire country, the alternatives are regional and many really want to know all about their users.
That link is to the Google Play Store, but it has twice been removed from there.
The first time it was because the app encourages donations, but that request was hidden from users installing via the Play Store. I think Google looked at the app and noticed that request for donations but could not see that it was functionally inactive. It took them a few months to accept the truth and permit the app again.
The second time was mid July 2025, they banned it again and refused to say why. I was in Germany and travelling at the time, the app ceased working with a database error and I was screwed, it took me a day or three to download Fdroid and get it working but now I get it from there. It's back in the Play Store (I don't know when that happened) but I have to assume this idiocy is going to happen again.
I use another App where the developer(s) announced that they were going to stop updating their Play Store version because the overhead was just too much, and that the preferred migration path was to Fdroid. It is a security product, one which resolves QR codes to text and requires the user to confirm that they really want to visit that site. Works for me.