Rasterman leaves RedHat 446
Well I thought I'd send this mail out now...
The short and curly:
As of friday the 28th of May I no longer work at Red Hat Software. The story is along ad will be explained sometime later - it's been brewing for months though.
I am now officially unemployed.
I am as happy as chickens in a seed farm.
As of tomorrow , June 1, 1999 I will be leaving North Carolina and moving west. I currently have no other employers.
This is all good for E and E development.
I am so glad to get out of ths creativity-stifling environemnt of RHAD LABS - away from certain people there who see E and its userbase as what I can literally quote them saying a "festering crowd".
I've tolerated this attitude towards E users for way too long. I do not envisage much future support from Red Hat for Enlightenment - they have been itching to get rid of E and will as soon as they can. I don't much care. They can do whatever they like - and I wish them all the best but I do not fit in there. E does not fit in there. They want a windows clone distribution and OS. I do not. They don't believe users really count - corporates and "partners" count and what they percieve as the "business world that wants an exact windows clone" counts.
I am not advocating changing distribtuions, but I am saying that this is onyl good for E - I will be freed up to concentrate on it and associated projects (that includes working on X and extensions to X). This also means i will be able to develop E free of GNOME. E is NOT GNOME's Window Manager - GNOME does not have one. Infact E will be workign to becoming its own desktop shell (I separate Desktop and Desktop Shell here for a reason) in its own right as time moves on - but unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it until there's something concrete there. E is getting on and a lot of important backend code is in place. After a few more necessary features it will start to grow into a desktop shell (a desktop shell is what I term the combination of Filemanager, Window manager and a Panel app launcher and an "applet/dock" holder). This means E is independant of whatvere desktop apps you use - you can use KDE apps, GNOME apps, GTK apps, X apps, Motif apps, CDE apps - whatever apps you like - but your desktop shell will be consistent and configurable to exactly how you want it. You alreayd knwo E's memory footprint is pretty small - especialyl compared to those of gnome and KDE (when you add the memory use of all the applets, panels, programs, wm etc. of each they add up to much much much more than E). E can absorb much of the functionality of these with very little overhead since it's already got the backend code there in E. Once the desktop shell for E is compleyte, debugged, optimised and so on E will hit 1.0 - but I'mnto setting a time limit on this - this happens when it's done and not before.
If you want to help: sit tight and stick to E - send good feedback and bug reports - We DO listen to them. Send patches to E if you want features. When the new dock applet apiu is done you can all scrutty off and write 5000 loadmeters, cd pplayers etc for E's new dock applet api (yes non square 64x64 dock apps - any size, anywhere (in the dragbar, in small windows, on the desktop istelf). all "dock applets" for E will follow the theme of the WM. This has yet to be worked on but will be - as well as adding in the iconbox again (that comes first).
Expect E to go far.
For the next week I'll be driving across the USA so dont' expect much response from me - after that I'll be moving into a new home, but therafter expect things to move along again.
I do hope we are doing things right by the majority of e users out there. You are my priority - not commerical interests, not political games, not a windows clone, not GNOME, not KDE - users come first. Those that help wiht the project get their wishes often done sooner than others becuase there aren't many working on E.
Here's to a bright future for Enlightenemnt and for all who use it.
--
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) raster@rasterman.com
Raster's Page raster@linux.com
"
Re:That's the problem with RedHat and VAResearch (Score:3)
In fact, I work on enlightenment at VA.
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
Re:business culture (Score:1)
I have all the problems AC does with Windows and trying to run a lot of small applications. The entire OS from the internals all the way up to the UI is designed around running a handful of really bloated applications. It has problems coping with lots of small applications, or combining applications in useful ways (unless of course the applications involved are designed from the ground up to work with each other--and conceptually that's just really one application with two inseparable modules).
I've never been able to make Windows understand that I want all text and border decorations to be minimally sized because I want to put ~20 windows on the display at the same time. In Linux this isn't always trivial but it's at least possible.
Personally, I'd like to use a UI (as well as its associated "look and feel" rules, which are really conventions for application implementors) such that applications will run as well on my 1600x1200x24 X display(s), with dozens of open windows, as they do on a Palm Pilot's 160x160x1 stylus screen. Unfortunately, many modern applications have difficulty even resizing their windows that small, much less working afterwards.
Interestingly enough, the Palm Pilot Developer's Guide (http://www.palm.com/devzone/docs/pptdg/TableOfCo
Of course the Palm's GUI design is a direct copy of the MacOS design in many places, and I am impressed with how well it has managed to capture almost all of the MacOS flaws. They could have built the system around Unix-like text files (with transparent compression for data transfer and long-term storage to conserve memory) instead of the broken MacOS creator/type filesystem--at least that way you'd have some hope of combining two small, memory-limited applications into one larger, more useful one. Thank God it doesn't have a Windows Registry...
gtkwm, or, where has my reply link gone? (Score:4)
As for Kwm (Raster does talk about E in KDE after all), it uses Qt as its toolkit. Same idea as mwm using motif. The window menus and root menus and such, they're KDE menu objects (derived from Qt). No wheels reinvented here.
In the gnome app list, I see a gtkwm that aspires to do the same, but it appears to be forever vaporware. Could some enterprising soul who knows window managers perhaps take up this project? It's ridiculous to have a window manager represent a code fork from a desktop environment.
As for reply links
Re:Red Hat's clone goal (Score:1)
personally, I think that in the world of linux, no standards are imposed on anyone. i use RPMs because they are convenient, not because i have to. i have seen plenty of things to download in
Re:Humble KDE (Score:2)
As it stands, Matthias opinion on the hype of Gnumeric and his "comparission" on the code quality are unfounded.
His bashing on other free software projects on that list are as bad as the ones I have been criticized for (hey, it was my *opinion*).
I did look at KSpread code when writing Gnumeric, hoping to get some good ideas from it, but I was rather dissapointed with the code.
Why does he say it is overhyped? Mistery; Why did the pink rabbit die? Mistery; Why did he spread miss-information about Gnumeric? Mistery again; Why does he imply we have some marketing team to market Gnumeric? Mistery once more; Why do I love Paris? Because of the coffee.
Miguel
Re:Choking down one's ego (Score:1)
I think you're right, but missing the point. From a general employer/employee point of view, you are absolutely correct. The employee was hired to do a job, and to do it under the direction of the company. I don't know what Raster's contract said, but I'm guessing that he was paid to develop E. As his employer, Red Hat has (well, had) the right to tell him how to do that.
But I think that j-edge's comparison to a music artist selling out is very apt. Raster has his own concept of how he wants E to work. If he was instructed to develop it in ways contrary to his plans, he could follow orders and perhaps feel like he sold out, or he could keep his vision and leave his job. It comes down to artistic integrity (and coding can very definitely be an art form).
I haven't looked at E's code, but from the interface, I'd say the Raster's pretty talented. I don't think that he'll have a problem finding work. He might want to consider doing the sort of thing Linus did--explicitly searching for a job that that doesn't involve E. In such a job, he might not have as much time to develop E, but there would be no conflicts of the nature we're seeing here.
--Phil (May we all be lucky enough to find a job where "work" and "play" intersect.)
Red Hat's clone goal (Score:3)
My only hope is they don't force standards on us. For all those who say that isn't going to happen, just look at RPMs. Who distributes using DEBs?
Maybe Corel will get it right?
Re:business culture (Score:2)
RedHat's future -> multiple window managers (Score:3)
Obviously there has to be a default, but all the other major window managers should be just one simple menu selection away.
The very least that should be provided are E, WM, fvwm*, icewm, twm and olvwm, and another half dozen or so would be most welcome.
People have hugely varying tastes and functional requirements, and the ability to choose window managers is one huge advantage that we have over Windows --- RedHat should make the most of that possibility.
Re:heh (Score:2)
I got an e-mail with the answer, within 24 hours, to get the latest Donald Becker driver source for that card as it was not tested and shipped with RH6. I gave it a try and that fixed the problem I was having.
I saw the next day that this was posted in the knowledge base.
Re:It was deleted (Score:2)
It was removed because we discussed internal stuff in that list, and people used my private comments on a private mailing list to start a flamewar with some KDE people.
The fact that it was available on the web was a mistake, as it is a private mailing list.
Nothing about the earlier release of gnome 1.0.
Miguel.
Re:Now who owns E? (Score:4)
which is actually a lot freer than GPL.
and you'll find a lot more people than raster's name in the copyright.
eesh -ewait "copyright"
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
Re:Humble KDE (Score:4)
annoying than he is (hey, I may already be
Besides, you are totally missing the point of what you replied to:
Matthias is just a developer. He is an extraordinary developer. Hell, he
writes perhaps the prettiest code I've ever seen, but he is not the
equivalent of Linus/RMS/Miguel/whatever in one important aspect: he is not
"the boss".
You see, he is not humble about his code. He doesn't need to, his code is
good. He is humble about just being a coder, which is (IMHO) a lot more
important.
BTW: what he says of KWord and Abiword is actually true.
Odd news. (Score:5)
Whatever his decision is, thats cool. It's Karsten's right to flip the bird to whoever he wants..but not without consequences. You have to admit, there are better ways to leave a company..Certainly more professional (and perhaps more mature) ways, at that.
Publically referring to your former employer as an entity which doesn't care about its user base, and prefers only "commercial interests, political games, and making a windows clone" won't exactly earn you any friends. Or a good employment reference, for that matter. It makes both Red Hat _and_ him look bad.
My only fear is that whoever his future employer will be will look past his talent and see him simply as a potential risk to the company's public image. If he decided he didn't like my company, and then turned around and slammed MY company in the press like this, I sure as hell wouldn't hire him either, talent or no talent.
If you dont like where you are, thats fine. Its cool to move on.. But dont spit in the face of people who gave you a shot in the first place. Its not just unprofessional..its also a bit childish, imho.
Bowie
PROPAGANDA
Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (Score:2)
Re:The beginning of the end...? (Score:5)
1. Core KDE developers *never* rip on opposing projects. They attempt to intergrate. I'm sure everyone remembers when KDE anounced Version 1.0 of GNOME promenantly on its webpage.
2. No publicity stunts. The software's done when it's done. 1.1.1 took forever to get out, but when it was out it worked really well. In fact KDE folks are currently debating whether they should try to pre-release more official stuff in order to generate interest. For example, the koffice daily snapshots won't generate the type of interest a Koffice-0.3 would.
3. No central cultish leader. Sure it's nice to have what ESR described as the "benevilent dictator", the Linus or the Larry Wall. However, neither Miguel or Rasterman fill this role particularly well. They have the dictator thing down, but not the benevilence. Sometimes, I'd say the FreeBSD/XFree/Apache model of just a bunch of developers works pretty well.
Just some observations about the way Open Source software works in different cultures.
Re:Interesting. (Score:2)
Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (Score:2)
where Miguel essentially said he thought E was a piece of sh*t
Actually, your description of the article seems fairly familiar, altough I am quite sure it was not Miguel behind the sentence.
Now that I think about it, it was an article titled "The Mad Hatters" by some US newspaper. I guess you'll find the link from GNOME.org [gnome.org]'s news archives.
(Checking for it, it might be that Frederico could've been interpreted to have said that in the interview, which actually wasn't about GNOME but rather the RHAD labs).
--
--
Re:heh (Score:2)
Technical support is *very* expensive, especially when you have a high demand for it.
Microsoft, on the other hand, upped the price for either greed, and/or to make it seem like its a "better deal".
Just wait till microsoft moves to a per term licensing scheme like everyone else(ie, Sun, Compiler companies, etc)
Re:Humble KDE (Score:2)
The KDE developers list is an output-only medium, just like the regular media:
----
I have offered you in the past to forward anything you want to that list, Miguel. It's not output-only for you.
I remember when you whined about that on IRC... and then oops, you closed gnome-hackers. Bad double standard there, Miguel.
Don't you have any IRC channels about projects you don't take part of that need crashing tonight, Miguel? Old habits die hard, don't they?
----
His bashing on other free software projects on that list are as bad as the ones I have been criticized for (hey, it was my *opinion*).
----
Except, of course, that you are the self-appointed GNOME leader, and that you gave your "opinion" on the BBC. If the parallel was more pathetic, it would be emetic.
Re:gtkwm, or, where has my reply link gone? (Score:2)
I'd rather see a specification that uses an ORB for communication. If the window manager wants to support GNOME, let it support an ORB -- ORBit's overhead is NOT as much as some raving anti-CORBA fanatics insist. The libraries are already in memory anyway. If the theme applet is run, let it change themes through an IDL interface -- frankly I'd like the window manager to automatically change along with the desktop, and not have to depend on GNOME code to do it. This was the original promise of CORBA (and GNOME): independence from implementation, reliance on interface.
And as for "gtkwm", "gnomewm", etc., don't hold your breath. Listing a project on GNOME's applist is the Kiss of Death for a stable 1.0 version. If anyone wants to see a window manager using GTK, go get wm2 (the closest thing there is to a reference implementation for X11 window management) and start hacking. Make it scriptable; write an IDL interface to it; let the programmer worry about adding docks and themes and gadgets and root menus and whatever.
Re:That's not really fair, Alan (Score:2)
However, I will take this oppertunity to attack the BeOS theme for enlightenment. Whoever wrote that (or at least the one I saw the last time I used someone's machine that was running E) had obviously never used BeOS. The thing in the top right corner had an awkward sort of application launcher thing instead of a process list. For someone who's hactually used BeOS a lot it seemed half-assed and counterintuitive.
Re:Now who owns E? (Score:3)
Alan
Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (Score:2)
The current CVS GNOME is quite stable. I haven't used E much yet, but hope to get it set up on my Ultra 10 soon.
Re:Red Hat comes to their senses. (Score:4)
"lighter" ?
most people who say these types of things don't know much about enlightenment. it doesn't hog memory unless you tell it to, and it certainly doesn't crash all the time like people tend to assume it does.
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
Dont be a putz (Score:2)
The point: (Score:2)
The point is not that they would close the source. But that they added a killer feature and THEN closed the source.
Remember, the example assumes RH becomes evil. So they come up with some moderately good idea, patent it (evil, remember), stick it in E and release binary only.
Suddenly GPL'd E loses the market and RH becomes MS.
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Re:Immature OSS coders (Score:2)
---
Joseph Foley
InCert Software Corp.
My thoughts... (Score:2)
"...I wish [Red Hat] all the best but I do not fit in there. E does not fit in there. They want a windows clone distribution and OS..."
I've been saying this about Red Hat since I first tried it and started X11. What should show up, but a window manager that looks exactly like Windows 95, right down to the "Start" menu and Red Hat's "Control Panel". Some people might say this is to make Windows users feel more comfortable about using Linux, but why should we make our operating system look like theirs? Projects such as Enlightenment are clear examples of the power and capability of Linux, yet Red Hat would rather have its money-paying corporate users run in an environment that looks like Windows 95.
I wish all the best of luck to Carsten in his move away from Red Hat. I hope the Englightenment project continues to prosper and grow into an even better window manager.
Re:GNOME will be next? (Score:4)
This is arrant flame-bait and not at all necessary. For a long time I used Gnome on one machine and KDE on another. After RH 6.0 came out, I chose Gnome everywhere and erased KDE. Is it so hard for KDE folks to believe that some of us prefer Gnome, and have not experienced any sort of stability problems with it? To be sure, I didn't have any stability problems with KDE either. They both crash much less than Win98, which I am forced to use for some purposes.
I went from Gnome 0.3 to 0.9, where I stayed for a long time. When Gnome 1.0 was released, I heard a lot of well-considered criticism of its stability and avoided it. I heard that it was fixed by about 1.03 and that's when I first upgraded to 1.x. I simply do _not_ have problems with crashes on my machine: Celeron 400 with 128MB RAM running RH 6.0 + Gnome (RH 5.2 + Gnome + Kernel 2.2. was just as rock stable). Netscape is the only occasional offender, and nothing that kill can't fix. BTW, I do everything from burning CDs to GIMP art to programming (Python, Java, C), etc on my main machine.
Gnome has as much a place as KDE. The competition between them has made both _much_ better in spite of the childish jabs from either side. Miguel can sometimes overdo the advocacy, but I have also heard (at second hand, admittedly) hair-raising flame-bait from core KDE developers as well.
And the key point is that Red Hat is not "pissing away" anything by supporting Gnome. In UIs, as in other things, non est disputandum de gustibus. Believe it or not, the fact that RH didn't board your favorite ship does not doom it to oblivion. Nor does the fact that other distros chose another desktop. All it proves is that there is healthy competition in the Linux landscape.
--Uche
This went around the world (Score:2)
I find this all rather unfortunate. (Score:5)
I was rather pleased to see how Gnome was coming along because I don't rather fancy the look of KDE, although that is what I have been using for the computer labs because it is the most complete system at this point.
Raster is correct in that E and Gnome are two different beasts. That is the problem. In giving out Red Hat 6.0 CDs to Linux newbies, I have found that they all get incredibly confused by the fact that the level of complexity of Gnome is compounded by a factor of two because of the fact that one must configure the window manager and gnome (sorta like matching your shirt and trousers).
I think that Red Hat was trying to push E towards being "Gnome's window manager" simply because that is what the most people out here would really really like to see. Gnome fills in the gaps that E leaves rather well, and truth be known, I think that a total integration would make the most sense. Insisting that Gnome be "non window manager specific" is just plain insane on their parts: it NEEDS to be or will forever have that dual configuation hell.
Despite what might be best for Red Hat, or what the most people want, absorbing E into Gnome most certainly isn't Rasterman would want. I can see why he would feel this way. People do open source software not for the money, but for the glory. There is precious little glory having your work buried into another project.
So, unfortunately, this shows one of the major weaknesses of Open Source. Because the modivation is notority, it lends itself to programmers whose egos can dictate more than what might be good for the community. Raster meantions that he is motivated by user input, but from what I have seen with the people I have tried to introduce Linux to, an integrated Gnome/E would be the most preferable path to take. While really really pretty, Enlightenment has always been the least usable window manager in any incarnation.
Admittedly, I don't know what might have gone on inside Red Hat, so I apologise to Rasterman if these comments have sounded overly critical, and certainly neither I nor anyone else should have the right to dictate the course of your life. But I must say that I am disappointed to see that we are less likely to see a more integrated Gnome/E and very disappointed that the change could not have been done in a more gentlemanly manner.
Surely this will provide a dividing line for the community and a oil tankers worth of fuel for the flame war that will follow.
Re:heh (Score:2)
>According to redhat, they upped the price to
>deal with the fact that pretty much well everyone
>who bought a boxed set wanted more technical
>support than what was previously offered.
If that's the case, then I think they failed to justify the price increase. I got a supported version of Red Hat 6.0 to see how useful it'd be compared to my previous Cheapbytes purchases. When I had a problem with the upgrade and couldn't solve it promptly, I submitted an incident to Red Hat's support page.
They made no reply after three days, so I solved my own problem instead...just like I'd do with an unsupported Cheapbytes purchase. In my case, Red Hat's support system failed significantly, and I could have saved my money. Next time I need an upgrade, I'll do it the cheap way.
--
My view on all this (Score:3)
As for Rasterman's comments with regards to Redhat. I believe these were extremely unprofessional. I think a simple "creative differences" would have sufficed. But saying that the company stifled your creative energies, etc, etc is a bit more than is needed. All it did was fuel the anti-redhat war.
Despite what the linux community at large appears to believe, not everyone has time to learn a new OS, a new way of thinking. Thay are not there because of the power of Emacs and grep, they are there because it does not crash. They are there because they can get their work done. IT people like it for remote admining, plus probably the power of the utils. I can vouch for this because I am an IT person, I tried to get a group of windows user to switch, and I knew that they woudl never have time to learn everything. They would rather spend the extra 3 minutes rebooting into something they knew rather than spend an extra 5 learning how to do email, then an extra 5 learnign how to start a command line app, then learn how to tar.
I know that learning is good (I spent the last year and a half learning linux as much as I could). I know that there are philosophical and ethical reasons for using linux. I don't care about those. I care that it is free (as in beer). I think it is neat that it is free (as in speech). I care that it works, and that the community in general cares more about quality than features. That's why I will use it. And I will keep using distributions that are easy to use.
Re:business culture (Score:2)
I don't get this; the RedHat default GNOME desktop is fairly Windows-like, too, but you don't judge it based on the default, right?
KDE has theme support through kdethememgr, with MacOS (even uses a global menubar if you like for KDE apps), Drawing Board, and many other cool themes. Theme support will get even better in the future, with the introduction of Qt 2.0.
--
Get your fresh, hot kernels right here [kernel.org]!
Raster- Stop by and visit with us at Linuxcare! (Score:2)
When you get out to San Francisco, check in at Linuxcare. (650 Townsend, corner of Townsend & 8th, third floor of the Sega building) We'll get you set up with all the local folks, and perhaps we have some mutual interests? In any event we would be pleased to offer you an internet connection and whatever resources you might need to find a place, a shower, and all the arrival basics.
Take care, Art...
This is a self fulfiling prophesy (Score:2)
Re:Red Hat is still the best (Score:2)
You're just plain wrong. Money from the Debian treasury has been spent on things like domain name registration fees (and the annual renewal rate).
If you're referring to the Open Source trademark issue, as I recall Bruce Perens paid for that out of his own pocket (but in the name of SPI), which is one reason he claimed he had the right to transfer it to Eric Raymond without SPI's approval. Now that Bruce and Eric have parted ways, however, I don't know if that reasoning has changed. But that's beside the point.
Debian money doesn't pay for lawyers or advertising. If we spent our money on things like that we'd be broke in a week.
As far as the criticisms about "politics" go, this is just a consequence of the fact that 99% of ALL Debian discussions are carried on in the open, on public, archived mailing lists. Debian does not have a dictator, a CEO or a staff of suits to tell us when to jump or how high. The body of developers is self-governing in a way that no commercial distribution can ever hope to be. Technical and political decisions alike are thrashed out in vigorous debate. Corporate boardrooms have closed doors; ours are wide open (except for sensitive issues like security bulletins that are sent to us and which we are asked not to publicize until a certain date).
Those who are interested may want to read the Debian Constitution [debian.org]. This is our alternative to "do this or we're going to have to let you go." If people want to join our VOLUNTEER project and be dictated to, that's fine, but most of us want a voice, and want to participate in guiding the Project to which we belong. Employees become shareholders in the corporations for which they work for similar reasons. If you think Red Hat is less "political" than Debian, you simply haven't been reading the news.
-- Branden Robinson, Debian Developer
Re:Red Hat's clone goal (Score:2)
Bowie
That's not really fair, Alan (Score:2)
Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (Score:5)
There is no entry on his page that he is leaving RedHat. However, he DOES say that he is moving to California:
So, we know for sure that he is leaving North Carolina, but not that he is quitting RedHat. Can anyone verify more than this? Was his post signed?divergent goals (Score:5)
RH, it seems, wants to target the mainstream user. Simplicity is their goal.
Both are great goals. But these are divergent goals. it is sad to hear of the sniping and infighting in RH. But, perhaps, this is more proof the the Linux Revolution (tm) is in full swing. This simple software can be stretched into countless directions. In essence, this CAN be a good thing for us all.
Good luck, Raster. I will keep your RH business card as a collector's item.
JL Culp
Real news. (Score:3)
And as far as most of you should be concerned, raster has said of GNOME-vs-KDE
"I wish people would quit fighting and start coding."
Quit wasting your breath, people, and get a life. Start making your own stuff, most of this chatter is useless. Find a better way to waste breath
[offtopic] Re:Packages? (Score:2)
People who think a 486 is obsolete (Score:5)
The 20 seconds delay on a 486SX caused by imlib poor coding is a 4 second delay on a pentium 166 which for 10 gnome apps starting is a lot of CPU time.
People who write unjustifiably unoptimised code are not good programmers. People who write inconsistent guis are not the greatest gui designers.
There is a lot of E code that is justifiably CPU intensive. It isnt rasters fault shape extension in X11 is heavy nor that transparent window moves while they look beautiful are CPU heavy. Imlib on the other hand I don't like codewise. I use it cos it works. (That being qualification #1 for good software 8)).
Another way to think of it for the more religious warfare inclined - imlib is why KDE is a lot faster than gnome on an 8bit display lower end machine.
Red Hat is still the best (Score:3)
If you don't like the $80 price tag, buy the $40 version without support. They were just diversifing their product range; not raising prices. $80 RH6 has better support than 5.2, and costs more. $40 RH6 has no support, but costs less.
Re: Choking down one's ego (Score:3)
Fred Brooks
The Mythical Man-month
Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (Score:2)
-------
Losing your faith is a lot like losing your virginity
Re:Just what is "Enlightenment" relative to "Gnome (Score:2)
Enlightenment is a window manager; it handles how your screen looks, i.e. the shape of windows, maybe your pager (the thing that allows you to choose your virtual screen), and so on.
Gnome is a graphical user environment; it is supposed to provide a unified interface for programs.
To put it simply (an oversimplification, I know), Enlightenment handles things outside your windows; Gnome handles things inside.
Of course, some window managers have elements of a graphical user environment, and KDE includes a window manager (kwm) itself. However, you should think of the WM and GUE as being two different things.
RedHat in California (Score:2)
Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (Score:5)
What's up at Red Hat (Score:5)
No doubt there are people at Red Hat who think that producing a Windows-clone user interface is the best way to going beyond the early adopters and penetrating the majority market. No doubt there are also people at Red Hat who think that the whole point of the exercise has been to build something different from Microsoft's offerings and that if you're just going to turn the product into a Windows-clone, why bother? No doubt there are even people at Red Hat who don't care a great deal about these issues, and just want to do their job and pick up a paycheck.
This is normal.
I'm not saying that I agree with everything Red Hat is doing; in fact, I have had serious issues with Red Hat for a couple years now. But this item is not one of them. We can only expect to hear more and more dissent from inside Red Hat, and this is good--it means they are maintaining transparency. We as users and customers want to know what's going on inside the company, and that means sometimes we will see some dirty laundry aired. Let's try to be mature about it.
-Graham
Re:Not surprising. (Score:2)
Personally, I like Redhat. I'm not sure *how* much they are getting for 6.0, but mine was free. Gotta love the Internet!
I see Redhat as trying to satisfy requested needs/wants from various and sundry users. If more of their users are corporate customers, then it stands to reason that the flavor would have a decidedly corporate taste. If you don't like the way it tastes, go eat something else. There aren't any chains holding anybody down at a particular table...
As far as Desktop environments go, again, each to his own. My favorite is Window Maker + GNOME. Someone else's is KDE. Again, others are just happy with twm. We're all about diversity, and it's a good thing.
Immature OSS coders (Score:2)
How many times has this tired tale played out? The oss coder doesn't like the philosophy of the people he's working for, so rather than try and iron out their differences, he simply leaves. It is no wonder that oss is still second rate in many areas- too often do coders just have fits and go and start their own new versions of a program. If oss coders spent half the energy on actually getting decent stuff written that they did having tantrums about doing it, then we might be in business. Until then, the cold laughter of Redmont will be our only reward.
Hate to disagree with God, but.. (Score:3)
...it does matter. The owner of the copyright decides the license.
Example: Let's say RH owns E. Right now E is under the GPL so no big deal. Then RH becomes evil AND has a good idea for a new killer feature for E. They add the feature and re-release E binary only. They can do this because they are the copyright owner. If they were just a licensee then Evil RH is no problem. You can see how this would suck.
In the case of kernel code (particularly from you) it's a little different. First, I believe you contract to RH, do you not? Unless you signed something saying RH owns the code you write they probably don't--you aren't an employee, you are a separate company (although this would be worth looking into). Furthermore, even if they did own the stuff you write/wrote, it's only a small fraction of the total kernel (no offense). With E, we are talking about the whole ball of wax.
Now that I think about it, this is a good reason to worry about any company that collects kernel developers like action figures. If they get enough of them they can release non-GPL'd Linux code...
--
"Please remember that how you say something is often more important than what you say." - Rob Malda
Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly (Score:3)
Alan
Competition and Co-operation (Score:2)
Agreed to a certain extent.
I think choice is a good thing, and I would like Linux developers to be able to choose which set of development libraries they use (GNOME libs or KDE libs or
On the other hand (in my opinion) KDE has earnt a place as a usable desktop while GNOME has not (yet), primarily due to the premature GNOME 1.0 annoucement.
The competition between them has made both _much_ better in spite of the childish jabs from either side. Miguel can sometimes overdo the advocacy, but I have also heard (at second hand, admittedly) hair-raising flame-bait from core KDE developers as well.
I agree that the competition has been good. However you seem to be implying that core KDE developers have engaged in a similar level of GNOME bashing as Miguel has in KDE bashing. This is simply not true.
Miguel has repeatedly made derogatory comments about the KDE project in public (official) annoucements. (and in doing so has done a disservice to other GNOME developers that wish to cooperate with KDE)
I challenge you to show me one single public KDE annoucement that makes even a single derogatory comment about the GNOME project.
As far as informal KDE discussions go, yes I have seen anti-GNOME sentiments expressed, (not by KDE core developers though). But so what? The official KDE project policy seems to me to be one of co-operation and friendly competition.
Furthermore I believe this is an honest policy and reflects the true feelings of kde-developers, core or otherwise.
Not possible (Score:2)
The GPL was explicitly designed to prevent that sort of abuse.
This is why I find all the anti-Redhat paranoia so amusing - even if they wanted to become a MS, the can't. They are prevented by the GPL.
Re:RedHat's future -> multiple window managers (Score:2)
I totally agree with Raster. I like RedHat, but I trust Raster more when it comes to what people want from the distro. Like him, I am not interested in the corporate world's desires for a quick fix to Windows. If Linux is going to start being ruled by the IT managers and bean counters, we are going to find our top OSS programmers turning to something else bleeding edge.
Choking down one's ego (Score:4)
Overall, I think RH is on the right track to making Linux (or broadly, Unix, since most Linux apps will run on other x86 Unix platforms) usable for the masses. Yes, it means "selling out" to "the corporates" -- but it's not selling out, per se. The reason why mediocrity has 90% of the users out there is because it has an incredible marketing machine (and really crafty contract writers.) Part of the RH strategy is to give the ordinary (dare I say, mediocre?) users something they're familiar with... and then be completely subversive by introducing changes that get them on the road to something more useful (UI-wise, application-wise, etc.)
While I appreciate and try to code to perfection too, there's a point at which the code has to be released and shipped. Usually companies have two sets of coders: one which creates the features and the "cool stuff" and another set which productizes. It seems to me that RHAD combined the two, pissed off one of their developers, and now we all get to hear about the bad blood.
Personally, I hope there's an opening when I finish this degree at RHAD. The important lesson is to choke down one's ego when it's appropriate.
-scooter
Re:business culture (Score:2)
Aren't enterprise desktops the Death Star in this little game of galactic domination? For 90% of the computer users out there, their favorite operating system is "the one they make me use at work".
Hopefully, in the future all distributions will have a little menu at the login screen allowing you to pick your Window Manager/Desktop Environment (like Mandrake has now). When that happens, all of these pissant flamewars might finally end, because folks will realize that the only real difference is two mouse clicks and a matter of taste.
--
With friends like these, who needs enemas? (Score:2)
These little diatribes also have a great way of ending one's career. Advice for Raster: Keep your mouth shut on the way out. It's enough that you've escaped. Don't burn any bridges.
Re:Humble KDE (Score:2)
Let me clue you in:
1. AbiWord is written in C++. OH SHOCK!
2. The fact that he does not talk to the press
is completely irrelevant. Slashdot posters
have made it clear that speaking your opinion
is a capital sin. Or is it just a sin for me?
Miguel.
Re:Choking down one's ego (Score:5)
Let me put it another way. Let's say a band you like is on a small label, and playing a certain style of music, and suddenly they sign a lucrative recording contract. If their music were to change from corporate pressure (tone down the lyrics, or make it more "Top 40'ish"), they would have sold out. It is very much selling out. They would have changed what they had been doing not because they wanted to, but to make the company that was paying them happy (and rich).
Personally, I am really happy that Raster didn't sell out. Besides being able to respect his integrity, I think the community is much better off with Raster coding what he likes & bringing his contributions back to the community, and Red Hat either hiring someone to code their GNOME-compliant Win9x-style interface that they want to appeal to the masses or go back to using fvwm95 or whatever.
How many people would be upset if Alfredo was being paid to work on Window Maker, but one day the corp. that writes his paycheck thought it would be a good idea that would help new users by changing the GNUStep logo in the top of the dock to a "talking, help-giving paperclip"(tm)
Keep up the good work, Raster, Mandrake, Alfredo, Miguel & the _COUNTLESS_OTHERS_ who spend YOUR time creating software and sharing it with us. And thank you.
j-E
Shells vs Desktop Environments (Score:3)
Don't get me wrong. I myself use WindowMaker 0.53 . It is reaching the shell stage Raster is talking about. It has app dock, 2 GUI configuration programs, themes, nice looking, fast , drag n' drop, etc (though, the file manager is not there yet). I have downloaded, installed, and deleted GNOME and KDE many times. Deleted GNOME mainly for instability and KDE 1.1 because I don't see why should I need all those features.
In GNOME and KDE it is easy to configure things like menu, background or the dock, but you can do so in Window Maker for example very easily as well. And the rest of KDE/GNOME deatures only add bloat.
I use gvim/vim instead of their pussy text editors, epic instead of xchat, xterm (with nexaw3d) instead of kterm or gnome term, pine/tin instead balsa, kmail, etc. Overall GNOME looks more like a shell for newbies, thats it. I like KDE more, because it has at least a window manager (and very nice), but still I feel that WindowMakert and other window managers already have all features that I need (well, a fast, stable, integrated file manager would be nice too but it is not a necessity for me)
Re:GNOME publicity stunt? (Score:5)
Furthermore, Red Hat is doing the furthest thing from making a Windows clone. It may be true that they made the Clean theme - the most Windows looking theme - the default in Red Hat Linux 6.0. That decision HARDLY makes Red Hat Linux a windows clone.
Just by saying "unlike GNOME I won't make a vaporware publicity stunt out of it" you've done just that - in saying these things about your co-workers - your colleagues - it shows that raster just didn't fit in. It seems that he had his own agenda and just wasn't a team player in the labs.
Not a bad thing (Score:4)
So it makes sense for Raster to go his own way, and I don't think it's a disaster or a tragedy or a commentary on free software development; he and the company just didn't fit together well, that's all. He's variably sized and curvy, Red Hat is 64x64 and square.
People change jobs. It happens. Often it's good.
Alan
who prefers his windows rectangular and opaque, but still appreciates Raster's work
Re:Miguel doesnt work for Red Hat silly (Score:2)
I think that it was actually Quartic that made that comment, though. I remember reading this, too, and I'm pretty sure the article was on RHAD.
Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (Score:5)
I think you are referring to an article about RHAD Labs that appeared some months ago in the News and Observer (a local paper). It was me who made similar, but not quite the same comments.
Let me tell you the little story. The day before the interview I had spent an unfruitful afternoon trying to write a configuration file for Enlightenment, to make a theme. Mind you, I did not succeed. So the next day I was rambling about how unreadable Enlightenment's configuration files are. I was especially untactful against the Enlightenment configuration parser.
So on the next day there came this reporter to interview the RHAD Labs crowd, and he asked me what I was rambling about. I told him, and somehow he managed to mangle it into text that said that I hated Raster's code and that Enlightenment was a bad program. I don't think I said that. I said that I did not like the way it parses configuration files. I apologize to Raster if I was harsh.
I have offered Raster to write a real parser for his Enlightenment configuration files. I think it is important for the window manager such as Enlightenment to have an easy way to create themes. A configuration file with better organization than what there is now would be good. A GUI tool to do it would be even better.
Again, I am sorry. I have learned the hard way that the press likes to mangle one's thoughts to create "interesting" press about a non-existent conflict.
As Miguel said, the thing that we *do* want to replace is Imlib. Imlib's memory management is rather poor, and as such GNOME applications cannot be as efficient as they could be with respect to image loading and caching. Imlib was designed for Enlightenment's particular needs and as a libXpm replacement.
I hope this clears things up. I apologize to Raster if that newspaper article implied offensive things. And I wish him the best of luck in California, where you can find nice civilized cities.
Federico
Re:Humble KDE (Score:2)
>there are now two overhyped gtk projects that
>both have a far superior counterpart in the KDE
>office suite.
>
>Without wanting to discourage you: Do you really
>think that's worth it? I mean, Abiword right now
>can't do even half of what kword can do! Why
>fiddle around with these over-hyped C-sources
>without functionality, if kword is nicer >designed, more powerful and object-oriented?
Strange, seems to me last time I looked at the Abiword source code it was in C++.
Not to mention that it is not gospel truth that C++ is the end all be all of computer languages. Neither is C, Java, Eiffel, etc, etc.
There are other considerations in the speed of Abiword development, such as cross-toolkit compatibility rather than sticking to only one (QT in the case of KWord.
KWord also does not list on its feature set a Word imported, which is available on AbiWord, though it is not perfect yet.
As for Gnumeric, I've been using it since the
The "over-hyped" comment is completely out of line, as there has been little mainstream coverage of either comment outside the casual mention in articles about each desktop enviorment.
The "far superior" comment is a MATTER OF OPINION, as both have features unique to themselves.
And even these being true would NOT be a reason to abandon two projects which are progressing very nicely and will only lead to more choice in the free software community.
My only hope is that there will be some consensus on file formats, preferably an XML derivative.
More Corporate Violation (Score:2)
In the words of Rasterman: "They [RedHat] don't believe users really count - corporates and 'partners' count and what they percieve as the 'business world that wants an exact windows clone' counts."
Is it just me, or is something wrong with this picture?
------
Re:business culture (Score:3)
Actually, not only do I use E at work, my job would be considerably more difficult without it. I have to take care of 6 Unix servers, and several Unix workstations, and I've got E set up on my desktop to change window borders/... depending on which machine a window is connected to so that I can find my way around faster. To the best of my knowlege, that's not an easy task with any other Wm. Between that, and the keyboard shortcuts, I'm about 3 or 4 times as fast using E as when I'm using any other Wm. I've used twm, Mwm, 4Dwm, OpenLook, AfterStep, WindowMaker, fvwm, and even a few scary 'built-into-the-Xterminal' window managers, and so far, the only one that I've had not crash on me is E-15. (I'm very abusive towards system resources.) I guess that makes me a freak or something, but the only one I've used that was as fast as E was OpenLook. (On linux that is. The only Sun I've natively run X on is a sparc1, and it's slower than my 486, which runs imlib just fine.)
I don't know how my Grandmother would react to E, but my 3 year old niece has no problems using it. Most of the time she just wants to turn on the screen saver or shut the machine down, but she also knows how to start up a drawing program to doodle with. (She scares me.)
Re:Good lad. (Score:2)
well i must say that rasterman leaving redhat citing differences is sad (nice to see a local lad from
how many times on slashdot have we heard lines like, 'ohh we tell the pointy haired boss that xxxxx (insert yr own os) runs that bit of software, but in reality have installed linux, freeBsd or some other flavour and theres no downtime and i get no complaints'
i was talking to my boss the other day about how redhat jacked their prices up from distro 5.2->6.0 and he said 'good, more business's will probably buy it.' From a business point of view it doesn't seem that free sw is the deciding facot and I'll be buggered if i know why?.from a home-user pov, cost is a factor and this is why oss is gaining a foothold on users desktops.
I'm currently trying to build a really small linux installation for 486es
plz post yr results on slashdot. i reckon myself and others would like to see the results and pilfer their code
Re:Software ethics! (Score:2)
Was? I believe the only changes to the QPL have been concessions to requests to make it more free, and QT 2.0 is still intended to be released under the QPL.
"not quite free"? RMS said that a QT released under the QPL would be free software.
He also said that the QPL is GPL incompatible, due to the patch clause and the lack of a privacy clause. Others disagree, I don't know who to believe. I've spent hours reading the GPL too.
heh (Score:5)
I understand that making sure you have a good business model is certainly important, but when any company, or even a group of people, target to have a monopoly on the interface to linux, i.e. what a person sees, when they see it, how they interact with it, that strikes me as being rather scary. This is, imho, why Enlightenment seems such a good concept. Provide the backbone to allow any interface, but do everything behind the scenes. Don't market the default interface as the end all. Actively promote diversity to accomplish the best results. I truely hope in the future that linux doesn't simply become the underlying archetecture to propriatary interfaces. Even with opensourced code, the concept of an end-all interface with it's own agenda can be damaging. Unfortunatly, it appears that this is the road that many companies, (and individuals) desire. Hopefully the most open design in the end will win, and that the people who work for companies investing in linux, will not abuse thier positions.
Ok, I'm off my soapbox now, flame away..
Of course possibly (Score:2)
Even the *main* owner can effectively release his GPLed software and other with it under the BSD, if he simply declares that he will not pursue any license violations.
So with GPLed software, the owner does matter a lot. This is different with BSDed software: there is almost nothing that a "malignant" third party would not be allowed to do with the software the same way as the copyright holder: release binary-only, restrict further redistribution, etc. etc.
Re:Ummmm... (Score:2)
And we love slashdot for it!
screw jerry springer. This thread is WAY more entertaining that that..
I use both KDE and GNOME, as the mood stikes me.
and I find KDE-GNOME wars like this immensly entertaining.
Flame on!
Re:Not surprising. (Score:3)
This really depresses me. I had it in the back of my brain that Red Hat was a good bunch, some folks who made the free software model work. And I'd ignored most of the "is Red Hat turning into the next Microsoft" comments because I figured that was just the nature of their position in the Linux market.
If what Rasterman says about Red Hat trying to push out a Windows clone, that really changes my opinion of them. I hate seeing applications that seek to be exact Windows knock-offs. How can we say that Windows is a bad thing if we just turn around and emulate it? This is the time for rethinking things, lest we become the beast itself.
Re:GNOME will be next? (Score:2)
As to GNOME stability: I'm currently running GNOME out of CVS on my home system (P200, Linux) and my work system (SPARC Ultra 10, Solaris 2.5.1). The only stability problems I've had (aside from some problems with the original 1.0 release, and one of the pre-1.0's until I rebuilt the world) were caused by outdated includes and libraries being visible during the build --- you can't safely build GNOME with outdated Gtk+ headers and libraries around, a fact which is fairly well documented.
(I'm not currently running E; I find the default Enlightenment theme to be a bit much, I *like* minimal user interfaces. I currently run a seriously minimalized fvwm2 configuration, but will be borrowing the RH6 E theme as a basis for customization when I have time.)
Re:Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (Score:5)
It was not me trying to rewrite E, probably someone else, but not me. As far as I care, I only care about the application framework and the applications.
The window managers never quite excited me, so I doubt it was me.
The only code I want to rewrite is Imlib, because Imlib 1.xx has serious memory management issues. So we are going to base our new image code in Raph Levien's code.
Hope this clears up your confussion.
Miguel.
Interesting. (Score:4)
Interesting commentary indeed.
I wish Raster the best of luck. I'm not sure why he would care to say nasty things about Red Hat, the product, or the people there, though. I don't know anyone at Red Hat who did anything to make Red Hat an unhappy place for him.
Sometimes things just aren't a perfect fit, though, and people have to find that perfect fit. I hope raster finds his. I'm saddened at Red Hat wasn't it.
I also hope that E development continues as it has. I think it's a damned good piece of free software and hope to continue to be able to use it. I also hope it does continue to tie into GNOME nicely. No, it doesn't have to be the GNOME window manager. There can be many. But I like E and I think it fits well.
Anyway, good luck raster.
--Donnie
Re:business culture (Score:2)
I was never particularly thrilled with E myself. It looked great, but did not seem to make my life any easier, and that to me is more important. In fact, my unhappiness with E has been one of the major reasons I haven't explored gnome more fully yet. I keep saying that one of these days I'll try it with WindowMaker, since people seem to have lots of good things to say about it, but I haven't actually gotten around to it yet.
Good lad. (Score:4)
I'm currently trying to build a really small linux installation for 486es, and I'm getting the files from RH5.1 to do it. The CD originally came from linuxmall as a two-for-one at about $5. Red Hat is probably not the distribution I should be using, but it's the only one we got at the moment, we're real low budget
Anyone who seriously thinks that cloning Windows is strategically vital had better go investigate the Interface Hall of Shame [iarchitect.com], and the reviews of the Windows Find applet, Explorer, and the common file dialogs. These are faithfully duplicated in environments like KDE (I'm thinking of Explorer in particular, it is _very_ similar), and the agenda to clone Windows will bring more and more of these horrible, appalling errors and awkwardnesses into whichever Linux environment goes that route.
Meanwhile, I'll be messing around with largely text-oriented Window Maker implementations (and figuring out neat things to do with scripts), and Raster will presumably be constantly furthering the limits of wild and ornate window manager interface design, and we can damned well make our _own_ mistakes, thank you: we don't _have_ to make Windows' mistakes as well just to be taken seriously. I'll happily take Raster seriously- he talks like a designer, like someone willing to try something new, or make his own decisions. I hope he takes me seriously but hey, I haven't 'shipped' yet so I have to get results together before I can expect to even be noticed. At any rate, I think it's safe to say that neither of us give a damn for faithfully replicating Windows mistakes out of some misguided notion that it is expected of us
So good luck, and if there's anything I can do to help, Raster, you're welcome to it. Here, it's not much, but I am good with GFX: use any or all of my Linux graphics [airwindows.com] such as tiles and textures and backgrounds. If I can do more I will, and if my own pursuits help you out I will rejoice, just as I daresay you'd rejoice if yours help out mine.
And if Red Hat does not rejoice to see non-Red-Hat-style implementations being busily developed, if they do not rejoice to see their profitable standardization undercut by people like us, well, fsckem
- if you want windows so badly, Microsoft is happy to sell you it
- cheapbytes. Who pays the packager/distributor $80 for what is free, particularly if it isn't in turn funding the Rastermans of the world? Who'll pay Red Hat to make Linux more like Windows? Not me, I'll tell you. They are just another distribution.
Good luck, Rasterman. Hack on.X Windows??? (Score:2)
someone with less than a pentium is not pretty.
It would be interesting if E could be lined up
as a build in WM system for a non-X system (i.e
run in the displayserver). Sure the theme
programming language needs a complete rewrite
for this purpose, but... (that said, what
I am basically describing is more like Berlin,
though an abstract display architecture sans
CORBA would be nice)
Re:Odd news.. My sentiments exactly (Score:2)
He said:
'I am so glad to get out of ths creativity-stifling environemnt of RHAD LABS - away from certain people there who see E and its userbase as what I can literally quote them saying a "festering crowd".'
That is hardly a unfounded remark. As he can say, he can literally, quote them, not figuratively. In other words, somebody within redhat has shown raster their true stripes as a corporation, and he feels it no longer has a soul. What is immature about that? and where else does he dog on redhat? Yes, he says they are trying to make an exact copy of windows, and for all intents and purposes, they seem to be doing just that! He speaks more about his move, and his love for E than anything, while spending very little time to be whiny and immature.
Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (Score:2)
Check the date. May 4!! This has nothing to do with what Raster posted on the e mailing list.
The beginning of the end...? (Score:2)
Anyway, what is going on people - is the Linux community loosing its grip?
--
Actually (Score:2)
BTW, after doing them all, for the installs, I would rate RedHat #1, SuSE #2, Caldera #3 (pretty, but buggy), installing from random unlabled floppies #4, and debian #5.
I was very happy to see RedHat install SMP support automatically.
-- Keith Moore
Best of luck to you Carsten! (Score:2)
all the best,
Yours,
Trae
aka: OctobrX
ps. Yes I'm too lazy to login.
Rasterman (Score:2)
I think the argument between Windows and Redhat 'replacements' are unfounded because of the completely different ethos between the two. RedHat offers something which my geek freinds and I can play with and learn about, develop software for and play with.
But you have to remember that the big Linux Vs. Windows argument is never going to hold...
...just look over the horizon. BeOs is gaing popularity (try the demo CD!), even my Amiga was more powerful/usable/stable than Windows!
People are finding systems which suit their needs (finally), so I think Rastermans' move was a step in the right direction. The scene is getting stagnant and we all need to move on.
Re:business culture (Score:5)
Enlightenment is a beautiful toy, if you want to do wild and wonderful things. But to a lot of people the fact that all buttons behave the same way is a feature they like.
Good luck Raster, E may not be the WM everyone uses at work, but its the one everyone uses for shows.
Alan
Re:another RHAD employee (Score:2)
Better get used to it... (Score:2)
Re:Is this for real? (His page seems to refute it) (Score:5)
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
E docs aren't exactly user friendly either (Score:2)
Actually, when I first heard about GNOME and Enlightentment, I went to the respective web sites to have a read. Gnome was okay, but on the enlightenment [enlightenment.org] web site the following comments caught my eye:
"One thing you can be certain of is that it DOES work - the developers run it all day themselves - There is a reason it doesn't work for you - it is likely something on your system."
and
"Please make sure you also have a stable Xserver - Enlightenment can push X hard - often X breaks. When your server goes down - your server is at fault."
Those two sentences gave me the distinct *impression* that the authors didn't really care about the end users, "it works for us, if it doesn't work for you, it's your fault, not ours"
Of course, with any software, it is always possible to be a user configuration problem, and nothing to do with 'E', but the attitude that came across in those sentences would leave me very reluctant to even attempt to report a problem.
So before he throws too many stones about redhat believing users don't really count, he should check if he's living in a glass house.
--
Re:business culture (Score:2)
I find some of the attitudes of employeers equally unprofessional.
I also like to be called stupid for quiting a job at a company that everybody was certain to get rich at. Two years later, the stock still hasn't moved.
Re:I find this all rather unfortunate. (Score:2)
Hell - I didn't even know I had to configure them seperately...or maybe I did and didn't know it.
Anyway...GNOME crashed. Or Enlightenment crashed. Or Netscape crashed. Whomever. They just wouldn't run together on my clunky machine - I don't care whose fault it was.
I switched to FVWM2 and nothing crashes anymore. This makes my happy. E sure looked nice, but I was more concerned with reliability, and FVWM seems to be providing it.
Youc could see this coming a mile away ... (Score:2)
My $.02
Re:Not surprising. (Anti Windows?) (Score:2)
Most people believe that since 'we' support Linux, Gnome, KDE, E, whatever, we shouldn't be emulating Windows.
Now hang in there for a second. Most people have worked with the windows GUI (which admitedly has some nice things, though they kind of get snowed under by the absolutely horrendous things), and know how it 'feels', expect certain looks, etc.
So let's take that to the 'Linux' community, if you'd be able to write a desktop that acts like the Windows one, but with Linux as a kernel, instead of the extremely buggy, inefficient Windows 95/98 kernel (NT is slightly, just slightly, better), you'd still have a Linux system.
It just *looks* different. I think a lot of people just immediately react to the fact that AAAAAH, It Looks Like Windows! Kill Kill Kill!, completely forgetting the fact that the driving force behind this Windows look-alike is something they so fervently support.
(Why would you not buy a 16 processor dec/alpha machine because it comes in a yellow instead of a purple box?
Mad.
Left because of E incompatibility with RH? Nah. (Score:3)
Are you suggesting that this was not really so in practice, that he didn't want to accept certain types of functionality and so he left? Details please. E could be themed to look and behave very very much like W95, so there's no inherent reason why RH couldn't have put E to good use in their plans as far as I can tell.
Maybe the source of the problem is that perhaps RH wanted Raster *not* to work on the bits of E that he knows currently require a lot of attention, but on other bits instead --- maybe W95 lookalike or workalike functionality, since he mentions something like that. I can see how that would not have gone down too well. It's typical of managerial types to want to direct the course of development in ways that don't take technical necessity into account.
I guess we'll never really know the full story though.